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  #61  
Old 09-07-2016, 10:03 AM
MaurysMusic MaurysMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Yes, the UMGF is big on price discussions, and as a result they end up sending folks to one or two discounters, who don't make it very easy for you to try a new Martin.
What exactly do you mean by don't make it very easy for you to try a new Martin? Store hours? Selection? Trial period? Return policy? Other?

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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
The AGF however became the largest acoustic guitar forum while they still had their no pricing policy in place, so clearly members don't need to talk about prices for a forum to thrive. But eventually "friends" of a couple of discounters made it too tough to enforce the no pricing rule, so JR gave in, and opened the forum to price discussions.
Are you accusing your competition of using shills? JR, do you care to weigh in on Ted's comments regarding your decision?

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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Like you, most folks are happy to pay MAP for a new guitar, which allows brick and mortar stores to thrive, but thanks to forums like this, B&M's are no longer thriving, which is why the AGF, and UMGF are not being embraced by the industry, in fact, quite the opposite.
How could you know most folks are happy to pay MAP for a new guitar?
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  #62  
Old 09-07-2016, 10:05 AM
baimo baimo is offline
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Originally Posted by mz-s View Post
The guitar makers should go direct to customer. The end customer is the customer. As it is now, the dealer is Gibson's and Martin's and Taylor's customer. That creates a disconnect in my opinion that shouldn't exist.

20 years ago, computers were sold the same way: manufacturers sold to dealers who then sold to customers. Prices were high and sales tactics were less than pleasurable. It took Dell (and later, Apple) stepping in to sell direct. It stung for the dealers, and a lot of them are now out of business, but the consumer won: prices fell, ease of acquisition rose, and there are still many independent dealers out there even today. They just have to compete with online and big box, but news flash: they already were, even during the dealer days. And although you can buy an Apple or a Dell direct from the company, you can also go to Best Buy or some other dealer and buy there if you want. In many cases, buying from a dealer gives you advantages: in house financing, lower prices, free add-ons, trade-ins, etc. Why should guitar sales be any different? Just because of tradition isn't good enough anymore.
Apple does nothing to help the consumers price. Actually it seems everything they do is in an effort to eliminate competition and keep prices very high. And apple fanboys buy into it.

Dell on the other hand must deal with real competition with all the other pc makers
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  #63  
Old 09-07-2016, 10:37 AM
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brencat brencat is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Like you, most folks are happy to pay MAP for a new guitar, which allows brick and mortar stores to thrive, but thanks to forums like this, B&M's are no longer thriving, which is why the AGF, and UMGF are not being embraced by the industry, in fact, quite the opposite.
Perhaps, but I think this depends on peoples' perception of value for a given brand. But I can tell you this, I'll be buying a lot LESS of that particular brand if I have to pay MAP when buying new and then take a loss of thousands when I want to unload it to try something else.

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And while Martin seems to feel guys like you buying four Martins instead of three at the expense of their dealers is a good thing, other manufacturers don't agree, and are taking steps to keep price discussions on forums like this from destroying their dealer network, and cheapening their brand. Case in point, after trying two guitars at one of the finest brick and mortar guitars stores in the US last week, you took home the Goodall, but ordered the Martin from a discounter. Clearly, had you not tried the Martin at the B&M, you would not have bought it, and had you not had the option of buying from the discounter, you would have more than likely bought it from the guy who made it possible for you to try it.
And therein lies the dilemna. Boutique manufacturers that sell 400 to 1500 guitars per year like Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, and Collings are well served by their restrictive sales policies. Someone like Martin who must place 100k+ guitars annually into the channel is not. They probably secretly love the enthusiasts who can afford that "4th guitar" and continue to spread the word. Martin spends plenty on global brand name recognition and celebrating their storied history, which keeps the customers coming back.

Lastly, about that OM-28A example...there is a segment of buyers, myself included, who would rather do without than to pay up for a production guitar, especially given the boutique and private luthier competition/price points. So no, we wouldn't necessarily buy at the B&M because we got to try it and there was nowhere else to get it cheaper. We would simply walk away, period. Santa Cruz who makes 500 guitars per year may not care that I don't care, but someone like Martin probably does.
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  #64  
Old 09-07-2016, 10:47 AM
mz-s mz-s is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Prices didn't come down because of direct sales, they came down because of technology.
Fair point. I would say that cutting out the dealer middle man had an effect as well, but yes you are absolutely correct that the lowering cost of components had the biggest effect on technology prices over the past several decades.

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As for selling guitars direct, a few manufacturers would love to go direct, but to reach out to all the people they are reaching now through their dealer network, they would each need to open hundreds of stores. Those stores would cost them no less to maintain than what it costs us, so prices would not go down, prices would go up. And where would that leave consumers? You would need to visit six stores to try six different brands. And I can assure that the guy in the Martin store would not tell you that a Taylor might be better suited to your needs.
That's the old way of thinking. People who are 40+ years old feel the need to go into a store and talk to somebody and try something out before buying it. The newer generation is content with researching, asking close friends for recommendations, and buying online - the retailer will take it back for free if they don't like it. Gibson or Martin adding a "Store" section to their site is cheap. I don't see the need for a physical presence. The dealers will continue to fulfill that need for those who need a physical presence. I'm not suggesting that the builders tear up their dealer contracts, just that they shift their thinking from the dealer being the customer to the customer being the customer.

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I think a form of territorial control, whereby a store can sell at any discount price they choose, if the sale is in store, but guitars shipped, even within the same state, can only be sold at MAP could work. This would allow folks without local stores to order long distance, without giving out-of-state sellers an unfair advantage. Enforcement could be tricky, but certainly not impossible.
That is a preposterous suggestion, and will never work in the real world. Why are we so concerned with saving a defunct way of doing business? There are still local photography stores even though Pentax or Nikon will sell you a camera direct. There are still local computer stores even though HP will sell direct. They focus more on used equipment, service, lessons, and community events than they do selling equipment that can be bought cheaper on Amazon. There will still be local guitar stores even though Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc., will sell direct. It's not the end of the line for guitar shops - it will be for some, but certainly not all.
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  #65  
Old 09-07-2016, 11:12 AM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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Originally Posted by mz-s View Post
Fair point. I would say that cutting out the dealer middle man had an effect as well, but yes you are absolutely correct that the lowering cost of components had the biggest effect on technology prices over the past several decades.
There would be no cutting out of any middle man, they would simply be replaced by those with less experience in running a retail business.


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That's the old way of thinking. People who are 40+ years old feel the need to go into a store and talk to somebody and try something out before buying it. The newer generation is content with researching, asking close friends for recommendations, and buying online - the retailer will take it back for free if they don't like it. Gibson or Martin adding a "Store" section to their site is cheap. I don't see the need for a physical presence. The dealers will continue to fulfill that need for those who need a physical presence. I'm not suggesting that the builders tear up their dealer contracts, just that they shift their thinking from the dealer being the customer to the customer being the customer.
I, as well as all but one manufacturer I discussed this with disagree with you, in fact most of them want nothing to do with dealing with the public.


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That is a preposterous suggestion, and will never work in the real world. Why are we so concerned with saving a defunct way of doing business? There are still local photography stores even though Pentax or Nikon will sell you a camera direct. There are still local computer stores even though HP will sell direct. They focus more on used equipment, service, lessons, and community events than they do selling equipment that can be bought cheaper on Amazon. There will still be local guitar stores even though Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc., will sell direct. It's not the end of the line for guitar shops - it will be for some, but certainly not all.
Disagree on more levels than I care to touch on here.
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  #66  
Old 09-07-2016, 11:36 AM
baimo baimo is offline
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Originally Posted by bryantjudoman View Post
Ok so i was looking to pick up a Martin perhaps d-18 or d-28 when I ran across a new 2016 gibson J-45 that just grabbed me. I compared it against so many others in the last week and it still sounds head and shoulders above the rest. When I tried to swing a deal with the shop they would not even flinch a dime on the price. Even though this 2016 guitar is already $400-500 more than last years model and even more expensive than a 2015 custom at a another one of the same chains stores. I will try again perhaps the manager can swing a couple bucks off. It just kinda rubs me the wrong way to pay full retail for ...ANYTHING! sorry for rant.
So did you find a discounter for the J-45? I have read that Wildwood Guitars in Colorado will discount a Gibson J-45. I am not that fond of Gibson so I have never asked them. they have a great site and must be a fairly large store to meet Gibson franchise minimum requirements. Good luck.
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  #67  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:08 PM
mz-s mz-s is offline
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
I, as well as all but one manufacturer I discussed this with disagree with you, in fact most of them want nothing to do with dealing with the public.
I'm sure that's what Fender told dealers up until the day before they launched direct sales.
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  #68  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:21 PM
AronW AronW is offline
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Originally Posted by mz-s View Post
The guitar makers should go direct to customer. The end customer is the customer. As it is now, the dealer is Gibson's and Martin's and Taylor's customer. That creates a disconnect in my opinion that shouldn't exist.
I have personally spoken with a few larger companies that want to do this exact thing. I can guarantee you that you will not like it if/when it happens
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  #69  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
It's only fair to both of you if your local dealer can match, or come close to the price of the long distance seller. The one price for everyone rule could still give out-of-state dealers the advantage of not having to charge sales tax, which for many folks is enough not to buy where they try.
Technically speaking, folks buying from out of state still need to pay the sales tax on their income tax return. It turns out, I'm one of the few suckers who actually does this on my return. California has cracked down on failure to pay sales tax on out of state purchases in recent years, but they are still pretty lenient about their policy.
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  #70  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:36 PM
baimo baimo is offline
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Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
Technically speaking, folks buying from out of state still need to pay the sales tax on their income tax return. It turns out, I'm one of the few suckers who actually does this on my return. California has cracked down on failure to pay sales tax on out of state purchases in recent years, but they are still pretty lenient about their policy.
I am quite aware of the tax laws in my state and understand I am supposed to pay NJ sales tax on the item I bought in New York, not the New York sales tax.

Is this still a Guitar forum??? I wonder if the OP was able to find what he wanted. I am going to UMGF for awhile. Later
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  #71  
Old 09-07-2016, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
I, as well as all but one manufacturer I discussed this with disagree with you, in fact most of them want nothing to do with dealing with the public.
I hope the one was Taylor, they do a great job with communication and customer service. I suspect they could represent their product very well at the retail level.
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  #72  
Old 09-07-2016, 02:20 PM
drtedtan drtedtan is offline
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Originally Posted by mz-s View Post
That's the old way of thinking. People who are 40+ years old feel the need to go into a store and talk to somebody and try something out before buying it. The newer generation is content with researching, asking close friends for recommendations, and buying online - the retailer will take it back for free if they don't like it. Gibson or Martin adding a "Store" section to their site is cheap. I don't see the need for a physical presence. The dealers will continue to fulfill that need for those who need a physical presence. I'm not suggesting that the builders tear up their dealer contracts, just that they shift their thinking from the dealer being the customer to the customer being the customer.
That approach is fine for commodities (e.g., technology), and even electric guitars (if I don't like how it sounds, it's adjustable (pickup height, new pickups, etc.)) but not so much for acoustic guitars. If I buy an acoustic online from a seller that allows returns, I'm still out $80+ in shipping if I don't like that particular instrument, so acoustic guitars are still unique enough that I prefer to play them before buying when possible.

Maybe not everyone cares about that, but I do.
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  #73  
Old 09-07-2016, 02:25 PM
mz-s mz-s is offline
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Originally Posted by drtedtan View Post
That approach is fine for commodities (e.g., technology), and even electric guitars (if I don't like how it sounds, it's adjustable (pickup height, new pickups, etc.)) but not so much for acoustic guitars. If I buy an acoustic online from a seller that allows returns, I'm still out $80+ in shipping if I don't like that particular instrument, so acoustic guitars are still unique enough that I prefer to play them before buying when possible.

Maybe not everyone cares about that, but I do.
I bought a Martin dread from Musician's Friend last month and the amount of shipping I had to pay both ways (from MF to me and back, since they charge you for the "free" shipping when you return) was less than $20. No biggie on a $500+ purchase. They emailed me a label, all I had to do was print it out, tape it to the box, and drop it off at the UPS store. I got my refund inside a week. Many other retailers do free returns.

The return issue is the biggest impediment to online retailers and they know that, so they make it as easy and cheap as possible to deal with.
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  #74  
Old 09-07-2016, 04:14 PM
Joe McNamara Joe McNamara is offline
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Originally Posted by mz-s View Post
I bought a Martin dread from Musician's Friend last month and the amount of shipping I had to pay both ways (from MF to me and back, since they charge you for the "free" shipping when you return) was less than $20.
Maybe I'm misreading this. Are you saying you paid less than $20 for freight on a full size dread from MF to-you and from-you-to MF?
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  #75  
Old 09-07-2016, 06:01 PM
mz-s mz-s is offline
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Originally Posted by Joe McNamara View Post
Maybe I'm misreading this. Are you saying you paid less than $20 for freight on a full size dread from MF to-you and from-you-to MF?
Yes. I didn't pay for shipping to me, but when I did a return they said the shipping to me and for the return shipping totaled less than $20.

I'm sure that's not the actual cost, but as I said MF subsidizes return shipping to encourage sales. Online shopping is not instant gratification, and returns are a hassle, so they subsidize the shipping to ease that pain point.
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