2016 j-45 no discounts?

[Rev Roy]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Yes, the UMGF is big on price discussions, and as a result they end up sending folks to one or two discounters, who don't make it very easy for you to try a new Martin. The AGF however became the largest acoustic guitar forum while they still had their no pricing policy in place, so clearly members don't need to talk about prices for a forum to thrive. But eventually "friends" of a couple of discounters made it too tough to enforce the no pricing rule, so JR gave in, and opened the forum to price discussions.

For the newbies, the AGF started with two simple rules, #1 was be nice, and #2 was no pricing discussions. Here is rule #2.

#2 NO GUITAR PRICING DISCUSSIONS:

I respectfully ask that you keep guitar pricing discussions offline. I think pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers. When someone posts that they bought a guitar for from dealer XXXXX XXXXX, that suddenly sets the price for a lot of other dealers to have to match to stay competitive. It doesn't matter if the more expensive dealer offers better service or value-adds, has a nicer display room where the instruments are better cared for, etc. If "YYYYY Guitars" is selling the same guitar for less money, many people are going to buy it. Now if you were the guy that just got great service buying your first Taylor guitar from your local dealer, you're so excited, you come online to see what other people are saying about this guitar and you find out that someone else just paid a few hundred less for the same model, how are you gonna feel?"


Like you, most folks are happy to pay MAP for a new guitar, which allows brick and mortar stores to thrive, but thanks to forums like this, B&M's are no longer thriving, which is why the AGF, and UMGF are not being embraced by the industry, in fact, quite the opposite.

And while Martin seems to feel guys like you buying four Martins instead of three at the expense of their dealers is a good thing, other manufacturers don't agree, and are taking steps to keep price discussions on forums like this from destroying their dealer network, and cheapening their brand. Case in point, after trying two guitars at one of the finest brick and mortar guitars stores in the US last week, you took home the Goodall, but ordered the Martin from a discounter. Clearly, had you not tried the Martin at the B&M, you would not have bought it, and had you not had the option of buying from the discounter, you would have more than likely bought it from the guy who made it possible for you to try it.

Note that my signature says "Guaranteed lowest Martin pricing" not guaranteed lowest pricing, and that's because most of the other builders I deal with feel deep discounting can hurt their brand, and I tend to agree. Folks can still get a good deal of course, but you will not see those deals being discussed on public forums, because as JR once said "pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers"

Good post, Ted. Couldn't agree more. Appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Rev Roy

Good post, Ted. Couldn't agree more. Appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience.

Thanks, Rev.

[justonwo]

To the OP, if you found a great sounding exemplar of the J-45, I would but that particular instrument.

As for the discussion of B&M stores, which is a little bit of a sidebar, I believe the B&Ms need to provide something which the big discounters can't. I think that's easier to do in acoustic guitars than electric guitars, but I don't envy the B&Ms that carry the big names like Martin, Gibson, etc. It's very hard to avoid having your store used as a testing grounds for someone else's deal unless you are so big that you can deal with the margins of the big boys.

I value places like Schoenberg, Gryphon, Luthier's Collection, McCabe's and various others because they do what the big online discounters simply can't.

[Woodstock School Of Music]

If I found that lit me up and excited me I would want that guitar. Guitars aren't widgets

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by justonwo

To the OP, if you found a great sounding exemplar of the J-45, I would but that particular instrument.

As for the discussion of B&M stores, which is a little bit of a sidebar, I believe the B&Ms need to provide something which the big discounters can't. I think that's easier to do in acoustic guitars than electric guitars, but I don't envy the B&Ms that carry the big names like Martin, Gibson, etc. It's very hard to avoid having your store used as a testing grounds for someone else's deal unless you are so big that you can deal with the margins of the big boys.

I value places like Schoenberg, Gryphon, Luthier's Collection, McCabe's and various others because they do what the big online discounters simply can't.

Plus one on buying the one that grabbed you in the store, Juston, especially with Gibson.

As to B&M vs big box, FYI, big box stores are not the main threat to independent brick and mortar dealers like the one you mentioned, the real threat are the independent discounters who are setting the prices for everyone. In fact, the deep discounters might actually be a bigger threat to the handful of big box stores that are left.

[baimo]

Ted
If someone sells Goodall guitars cheaper and I am sure there are some that try to get away with that stuff, I don't care. I know I bought it at a fair price. I really care more about the character of the seller sometimes and I never need to second guess Gordon at Rudy's. He is a standup guy. Again I would not buy a Martin from him as I have a quality guy like Jon Garon of MFG who sells me those guitars at a better price point.
And if anyone questions my sincerity about this, they should call Jon and ask him about me. He has offered me discounts that I feel are excessive and unnecessary to please me just because I have bought a good amount of instruments from him. I have turned him down and told him that he should charge me more and that he should be able to make a reasonable profit on me. I am looking for a good deal but only one that is fair to the buyer and seller.
I am sure you also have customers that want more than just the best price.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Plus one on buying the one that grabbed you in the store, Juston, especially with Gibson.

As to B&M vs big box, FYI, big box stores are not the main threat to independent brick and mortar dealers like the one you mentioned, the real threat are the independent discounters who are setting the prices for everyone. In fact, the deep discounters might actually be a bigger threat to the handful of big box stores that are left.

This has been an interesting thread. Recent polls conducted indicate the majority of AGF members are over 45 years old. So I'm sure there is a lot of traditional thinking here that's based on common decency. and the old comradery brick and mortars once had with customers. Unfortunately, our culture just doesn't work that way any more. Well the values are handed down to some, but it's very, very bad idea to assume this tradition is carrying on because it clearly isn't. Walmart Supercenters in small towns prove that even in traditional rural communities it doesn't exist for most customers.

Customers aren't driven by sympathy for struggling businesses, they are driven to get the best quality, most features at the lowest price. Loyalty just doesn't exist anymore as it once did.I think with older buyers it does, but not with younger buyers. I'm not in the retail business but I know a lot of players. I know where their thinking is. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Inconsistency in guitars has given customers incentive to put hands on the product before buying which gives value to local brick and mortar stores, but generous exchange polices by on-line retailers and improved consistency in building thanks to CNC machines have mitigated that value to a lot of the younger crowd. This is the harsh reality.

The law of supply and demand and the nature of Capitalism is what it is. If your business is dependent on customers being sympathetic to your struggle with the competition you are probably doomed. As often happens, the rules have changed and it's time to figure out how to rework your model to match shops like Wildwood, Music Villa, Chicago Music Exchange, Shoreline Music, etc.. When I think of these stores I think of boutique privately owned shops that have adapted in the Internet age and have distinctive on-line presence.

Throughout history you see waves of change and business that don't adapt going through this process of appealing to the sympathetic buyer right before failing. If the customer no longer sees value in the dealer and the manufacturer no longer sees value then we end up seeing direct sales. That's already happening in the guitar industry. Fender started it in 2014 when they began direct sells. With Gibson nixing the gap between MSRP and MAP can they really be that far behind? If Gibson goes there with their acoustics I wonder how long before Taylor and Martin would follow. The same people saying "Martin would never" would have probably also told you Martin would never build guitars in Mexico had you asked them 20 years ago. Successful companies adapt and even if we don't like it (I've said plenty about my feelings of Martin building in Mexico) the reality is businesses do what they have to in order to stay competitive or they fail. NAFTA diving builders to build in Mexico is a whole different thing than the Internet changing retail sells practices, but the correlation is that successful companies adapt to change and even the most traditional companies should embrace change if they want to survive.

In the end it's all about what it's always about, supply and demand. The same forces of change that cause Martin and Taylor to build in Mexico lead consumers to seek out the best value and seriously evaluate the incentives of each retailer available to them. I believe within ten years we'll see all major guitar vendors selling direct to the public (why wouldn't they? it seems to be working well for Fender). The flow of information and the availability the Internet provides to customers to buy on-line gives opportunity to those businesses willing to embrace change and find ways to add value but will continue to devastate those who don't

[MD1983]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Yes, the UMGF is big on price discussions, and as a result they end up sending folks to one or two discounters, who don't make it very easy for you to try a new Martin. The AGF however became the largest acoustic guitar forum while they still had their no pricing policy in place, so clearly members don't need to talk about prices for a forum to thrive. But eventually "friends" of a couple of discounters made it too tough to enforce the no pricing rule, so JR gave in, and opened the forum to price discussions.

For the newbies, the AGF started with two simple rules, #1 was be nice, and #2 was no pricing discussions. Here is rule #2.

#2 NO GUITAR PRICING DISCUSSIONS:

I respectfully ask that you keep guitar pricing discussions offline. I think pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers. When someone posts that they bought a guitar for from dealer XXXXX XXXXX, that suddenly sets the price for a lot of other dealers to have to match to stay competitive. It doesn't matter if the more expensive dealer offers better service or value-adds, has a nicer display room where the instruments are better cared for, etc. If "YYYYY Guitars" is selling the same guitar for less money, many people are going to buy it. Now if you were the guy that just got great service buying your first Taylor guitar from your local dealer, you're so excited, you come online to see what other people are saying about this guitar and you find out that someone else just paid a few hundred less for the same model, how are you gonna feel?"


Like you, most folks are happy to pay MAP for a new guitar, which allows brick and mortar stores to thrive, but thanks to forums like this, B&M's are no longer thriving, which is why the AGF, and UMGF are not being embraced by the industry, in fact, quite the opposite.

And while Martin seems to feel guys like you buying four Martins instead of three at the expense of their dealers is a good thing, other manufacturers don't agree, and are taking steps to keep price discussions on forums like this from destroying their dealer network, and cheapening their brand. Case in point, after trying two guitars at one of the finest brick and mortar guitars stores in the US last week, you took home the Goodall, but ordered the Martin from a discounter. Clearly, had you not tried the Martin at the B&M, you would not have bought it, and had you not had the option of buying from the discounter, you would have more than likely bought it from the guy who made it possible for you to try it.

Note that my signature says "Guaranteed lowest Martin pricing" not guaranteed lowest pricing, and that's because most of the other builders I deal with feel deep discounting can hurt their brand, and I tend to agree. Folks can still get a good deal of course, but you will not see those deals being discussed on public forums, because as JR once said "pricing discussions in the public forum can hurt dealers and ultimately hurt customers"

I think it's one thing to argue for universal pricing across all dealers, which seems fair to me, and quite another to argue for information suppression on the internet. Of course, this has to do with your business, so your interests are not at all aligned with my interests as a customer. But no, the truth will out, and secrecy will not prevail.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Plus one on buying the one that grabbed you in the store, Juston, especially with Gibson.

As to B&M vs big box, FYI, big box stores are not the main threat to independent brick and mortar dealers like the one you mentioned, the real threat are the independent discounters who are setting the prices for everyone. In fact, the deep discounters might actually be a bigger threat to the handful of big box stores that are left.

Ah, ok. I haven't really dealt with any of the deep discounters.

I buy from the places where I play the guitar, as I think that's only fair. I, for one, would love to see the return of the "one price for everyone" model. The discounting game is a race to the bottom.

[TBman]

Anything over $1,000 and I'm buying it from GC, Sam Ash or a smaller place near me. I may be old fashioned but I like the guitar to pick me. I got lucky when I bought the J-45 that I had to return in that another GC had one that sounded just as good. It isn't to say that I would never buy online for something over 1k, maybe a Taylor 12 fret that I can't find in stores or a Gibson AJ, you know, the animal rarely seen in the wild, at least by me here in dreadland NJ. I'm not looking to save $100 when I'm shopping, I want the guitar that says "take me home."

Originally Posted by TBman

Anything over $1,000 and I'm buying it from GC, Sam Ash or a smaller place near me. I may be old fashioned but I like the guitar to pick me. I got lucky when I bought the J-45 that I had to return in that another GC had one that sounded just as good. It isn't to say that I would never buy online for something over 1k, maybe a Taylor 12 fret that I can't find in stores or a Gibson AJ, you know, the animal rarely seen in the wild, at least by me here in dreadland NJ. I'm not looking to save $100 when I'm shopping, I want the guitar that says "take me home."

What if, and this is a true story, say you wanted a J-45 Vintage, and your local store wanted $4k plus tax for it, but you could buy it from another smaller dealer from a different state for $3k shipped?

[TBman]

Originally Posted by FaheyRolls

What if, and this is a true story, say you wanted a J-45 Vintage, and your local store wanted $4k plus tax for it, but you could buy it from another smaller dealer from a different state for $3k shipped?

I don't honestly know. I buy guitars when they say "buy me." usually. The exceptions are my Alvarez, Seagull and Republic which I ordered online. If I'm going to a store nearby and I fall in love with guitar I'm not sure if I would check all dealers on the internet, maybe just GC, Musician friends, some of our sponsors, Zsounds, etc. If I found a huge price difference like $1,000 I would bring it to the attention of the seller by me if I was ready to buy. If they wouldn't budge I might just pass on it. If they come down $500, I would probably pay it knowing that I know what I'm getting. I don't like the idea of spending 2k or more on something I haven't played. What kind of money are you talking about? $6,000, $7,000?

If the other dealer isn't all that far away it might be, "Gee honey, time for a road trip".

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by MD1983

I think it's one thing to argue for universal pricing across all dealers, which seems fair to me, and quite another to argue for information suppression on the internet. Of course, this has to do with your business, so your interests are not at all aligned with my interests as a customer. But no, the truth will out, and secrecy will not prevail.

I think you are misreading my posts, I am not arguing for anything, least of all suppressing information. And you are definitely wrong about our interests not being aligned.

FYI, every year at winter NAMM I meet with dozens of manufacturers, as well as brick and mortar store owners I'm friendly with, and inevitably dealer margins will come up. Fingers are pointed at customers who come in to play guitars, even though they plan on ordering from a dealer out of state, forums like this are blamed for providing a platform for circumventing MAP, and the deep discounters are called names I cannot repeat here for leading the race to the bottom, but I think the fingers are being pointed in the wrong direction.

First of all, customers have every right to seek out the lowest price, and they should never be shamed, or mistreated for doing so. Forums like this also shouldn't be blamed, as they are not in the business of supporting one type of business over another. In fact, rule #2 of the AGF was never intended to suppress info, it was there to be polite to all those folks who might have paid a bit more for their guitars, but are quite happy with the deal they got. As for the discounters, yes, they are indeed leading a race to the bottom, but last I checked, everyone of them is an authorized dealer for the brand(s) they sell.

The way I see it, it's the builders/manufacturers that have full control, by design, or negligence, it will be their actions that decide where you can buy a guitar in ten years.

[mz-s]

The guitar makers should go direct to customer. The end customer is the customer. As it is now, the dealer is Gibson's and Martin's and Taylor's customer. That creates a disconnect in my opinion that shouldn't exist.

20 years ago, computers were sold the same way: manufacturers sold to dealers who then sold to customers. Prices were high and sales tactics were less than pleasurable. It took Dell (and later, Apple) stepping in to sell direct. It stung for the dealers, and a lot of them are now out of business, but the consumer won: prices fell, ease of acquisition rose, and there are still many independent dealers out there even today. They just have to compete with online and big box, but news flash: they already were, even during the dealer days. And although you can buy an Apple or a Dell direct from the company, you can also go to Best Buy or some other dealer and buy there if you want. In many cases, buying from a dealer gives you advantages: in house financing, lower prices, free add-ons, trade-ins, etc. Why should guitar sales be any different? Just because of tradition isn't good enough anymore.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by justonwo

Ah, ok. I haven't really dealt with any of the deep discounters.

I buy from the places where I play the guitar, as I think that's only fair. I, for one, would love to see the return of the "one price for everyone" model. The discounting game is a race to the bottom.

It's only fair to both of you if your local dealer can match, or come close to the price of the long distance seller. The one price for everyone rule could still give out-of-state dealers the advantage of not having to charge sales tax, which for many folks is enough not to buy where they try.

Originally Posted by mz-s

The guitar makers should go direct to customer. The end customer is the customer. As it is now, the dealer is Gibson's and Martin's and Taylor's customer. That creates a disconnect in my opinion that shouldn't exist.

20 years ago, computers were sold the same way: manufacturers sold to dealers who then sold to customers. Prices were high and sales tactics were less than pleasurable...

Comparing the computer industry to the guitar industry doesn't really work, IMO. I bought my first computer just over 20-years ago, I ordered it long distance, and it cost me a fortune. Prices didn't come down because of direct sales, they came down because of technology. I bought my last six computers locally, because I was able to get discounts that are not available online, and this is what needs to happen in the guitar industry.

As for selling guitars direct, a few manufacturers would love to go direct, but to reach out to all the people they are reaching now through their dealer network, they would each need to open hundreds of stores. Those stores would cost them no less to maintain than what it costs us, so prices would not go down, prices would go up. And where would that leave consumers? You would need to visit six stores to try six different brands. And I can assure that the guy in the Martin store would not tell you that a Taylor might be better suited to your needs.

Course the reality is, that most manufacturers can't afford to open their own stores, so what you're really talking about is buying direct, online. Yes, folks are doing this now, but usually after they played some guitars in one or more local brick and mortar stores. With them gone, you would be making your decision based on photographs, and a spec sheet. Fine for electronics, not so good for guitars.

The main problem is that with the Internet, territorial protection has gone away, and no one noticed. When my Martin rep signed me up, he pulled out a map to see how close I was to his other dealers, I almost burst out laughing. My main competition isn't coming from 10 miles away, it's coming from thousands of miles away, from a place where a 1000 square foot commercial building costs less to rent than what I pay to park my car in the lot downstairs.

I think a form of territorial control, whereby a store can sell at any discount price they choose, if the sale is in store, but guitars shipped, even within the same state, can only be sold at MAP could work. This would allow folks without local stores to order long distance, without giving out-of-state sellers an unfair advantage. Enforcement could be tricky, but certainly not impossible

BTW, before someone attacks me for suggesting something that is in my best interest, folks should know that we sell most of our guitars long distance, so we would actually have to rethink how we do business if something like this were implemented, but I do believe it would benefit both the consumers, and the industry.