Chinese made guitars

[airguitarro]

Precisely what "environmental carnage" is being referred to here? I am not aware of Chinese guitar making companies being implicated in violations of CITES etc or of polluting rivers etc...It is important to deal in facts here and not to make suppositions concerning a specific industry based merely on their country of origin.

IMHO the bottom line is that Chinese companies are making entry level guitars of a quality level at a relative cost that is a far better deal than anything guitarists of an earlier time could ever dream of getting. At their relative cost point, the Chinese entry level guitars may be among the best ever made.

Chinese guitars are moving steadily up the value-added ladder, and they are no longer found on the lowest rung but are steadily conquering the lower mid rungs as well. At this rate, it is not unreasonable to think that they will be breathing down the necks of Taylor and Martin in perhaps a decade or so or maybe even less...

[jmcphail]

The ability to manufacturer similar goods at a fraction of the price comes from *somewhere*.

It's generally accepted that industries of all kinds in China have fewer regulatory concerns than their counterparts in other nations.

There seems to be less infrastructure to support, and things like pension, unemployment insurance, health insurance, workplace safety standards, short- and long-term disability and profit sharing arrangements like 401K probably take a very different shape than we're used to seeing in other countries. Wages and taxes also probably look different.

I have read about the Three Gorges Dam project and the toll it has taken on the environment there, and about industries, like mining, with worker deaths numbering over a dozen per day being the norm. Other countries spend big bucks to avoid those things.

Being able to "skip" all of those inconvenient expenses create a competitive advantage for the Chinese manufacturers, who are able to use it in a brute force way to dominate low-cost market segments. It's not happening through innovation in design or fabrication.

I don't see why the guitar manufacturing industry in China would behave any differently than other industries. It's probably not as dirty as heavy industrial, and probably not as unsafe as mining, but I believe most if not all industries in China operate far differently than they would elsewhere where those practices would be unacceptable.

To just say that there hasn't been anything documented specifically ignores the larger picture IMO. I agree that it's important to deal in facts, by the way. It's important to understand the conditions that produce the goods you consume, and to weigh whether the savings you enjoy are worth the twofold cost of environmental and worker safety issues in the producing country and shrinking industries and the toll on displaced work forces in other countries that operate under different and more stringent standards.

I'm not faulting anyone for buying a Chinese guitar, but I disagree with the idea that cost is the only concern when you buy something, guitars or otherwise. We're all allowed to make our choices, but we also need to know that we're responsible for the effects of our choices.

[lw216316]

A few months back I bought a new Recording King R0S 627.
- its a 12 fret, slot head -
pretty much a clone of a Martin 000-28VS
It has the same appearance, tone and parts/features as the Martin
that cost about 3 1/2 times as much.

A Martin expert I know (who shall remain nameless),
said it sounds as good as the best Martin 000-28VS models he has played.

Martin DID NOT lose a sale when I bought the Recording King -
because the Martin was beyond my budget.
My purchase of the Recording King actually helped some people in the U.S.
because the Dealer made money, the shipping company made money,
the guy I got to set it up made money etc...
So U.S jobs were involved even though the guitar itself was not made in the U.S.

If the quality of the guitar were not as good - that would be another story -
but the quilty is as good.

That said, wouldn't you know, 6 weeks after I bought it, I had a chance for the first time to play a Larrrivee 12 fret slot head 000-60.
Of course I got GAS for one...you know the rest of the story...

At least I don't have as much money tied up in the Recording King as I would have with a Martin - and it should be easier to sell.

Do I feel bad about buying from a Canadian company instead of the U.S. Martin company ?
No.
Same thing -
I got a used Larrivee within my budget - much less than a used Martin
that would be outside what I can afford.
Again - Martin did not lose a sale.
A local guy who delivered the guitar made money,
the local guy I got to set it up made money.

[Guitarhero33]

There are a bunch of fine Handmade guitars coming from Nicaragua with excellent sound and quality. Since Nicaragua has a large source of Cocobolo RW and Mahogany, you can get a high quality beauty w/exotic woods for a fraction of what you pay in the states (and probably sounds better than one made from the states).
You can put many other guitars made in Central and South America on your list as well.
The Great Depression was somewhat based on "American ignorance" that our products are superior to all others. The G.D. is going to be in your household when you purchase a U.S. made item for "$$$$$$$$" when you can get it for "$" somewhere else. It's all about Cost of living.Many Chinese workers will be suffice with $500 a month. In that case, why will they place their guitars at equal pricing as that of a U.S. made one, when an average U.S. Salary is about 5,000 a month (give or take).
Globalization is inevitable L&G's and we should take advantage of it rather than evading it. Return policies always help the consumer when a deal is to good to be true.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

The ability to manufacturer similar goods at a fraction of the price comes from *somewhere*.

Yes, it comes from lower labor costs. The labor costs are so low that it makes more sense for them to hire people than deploy capital-intensive machines. We have the opposite situation here.

Does that mean that workers in China are underpaid or that working conditions are poor? Not necessarily.

Does it mean that US employers have a heavy employee cost burden that makes them less competitive in certain labor-intensive industries? Yes.

[jmcphail]

It's more than labor costs.

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Yes, it comes from lower labor costs.

I disagree. Five minutes with Google and Wikipedia tells me otherwise.

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Does that mean that workers in China are underpaid or that working conditions are poor? Not necessarily.

Yes. We have standards of living to maintain, plus infrastructure, plus a mandate to maintain the world around us for our neighbors, families and future generations. The mandate comes from us by way of our representative government.

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Does it mean that US employers have a heavy employee cost burden that makes them less competitive in certain labor-intensive industries? Yes.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

I disagree. Five minutes with Google and Wikipedia tells me otherwise.

Which guitar maker and what are the poor conditions?

Yes. We have standards of living to maintain, plus infrastructure, plus a mandate to maintain the world around us for our neighbors, families and future generations. The mandate comes from us by way of our representative government.

Yes, we've made our choices, and we're living with the repercussions as well as the benefits. Those decisions have raised the costs of our goods, which workers see as inflation, and they demand additional wages and benefits.

It's a spiral, and China has entered the same spiral. Eventually, some other nation will have the low-cost labor advantage, and the cycle will begin again.

[airguitarro]

jmphail, please permit me to propose another alternative view.

It seems to me that your argument would tar every industry that is located in China with the same brush despite the fact that there are no specific facts that have been raised to merit such accusations concerning that industry. Now, that does not seem altogether fair to me. If Mr Chan's Shanghai guitar factory is run properly and well and treats his workers well, then why should Mr Wong's Shenzen baby clothes factory's infringements disqualify Mr Chan from being considered as a worthy maker of guitars?

As well, there seems to be an awful lot of assumptions made about China which I am not equipped nor qualified to judge - e.g. that China has no adequate superannuation/worker insurance/retirement benefits vis a vis its standard of living. Are Chinese businesses not taxed as in America? I don't know, but if you are not sure either, then may I submit that that should be checked out first?

IMHO the fact of the matter is that the main difference is that Chinese wages are a lot lower than American wages on average. But then again, American wages are among the highest on the planet. It is important to realise that most of the world are at a far lower economic level than the US - the norm in the world is not what is enjoyed in the US. China is no special case - they are in the same boat as most of the rest of the world. That is the biggest single reason why Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Mexican and Filipino made guitars are so much cheaper than American made guitars.

The other basis of your view is the Three Gorges Dam environmental damage. There have been grave environmental depredations done by USA, Great Britain etc on their own environments as well, both in the past and in the more recent past.

Also, supposing if China is guilty of doping their economy by not adding regulatory, welfare, superannuation, environmental assessment costs. If China is guilty of this, then most of the developing world is too. Which would mean that USA should only buy from countries that have its own standards in these areas and whose products cost the same as American products.

Which would also end up barring every other country besides some members of the EU, Japan, and perhaps Canada. If Americans only buy from those countries, the American cost of living would rise so high that even basic necessities and consumer goods would be far beyond that which many households can afford. The American way of life would become unsustainable because there is no labor force in the country that could be legally compelled to accept the low wages necessary to generate the low priced goods on which its economy and citizens require.

Also, putting the issue of their different political backgrounds aside, China is where USA was at an earlier stage of its industrial development. Is it altogether fair to expect First World standards on Third World countries? If USA and other developed nations should only buy from other developed nations or countries that follow developed nations standards, then how are the lesser developed nations going to rise up to the level of affluence that developed countries enjoy?

[jmcphail]

Please see post #77, paragraphs 3, 4, 6, and especially the first sentence of paragraph 7.

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Which guitar maker and what are the poor conditions?

[rlouie]

hey folks!!! remember no politics please!!!! please edit your posts to reflect our rules.............

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

Please see post #77, paragraphs 3, 4, 6, and especially the first sentence of paragraph 7.

I understand that you are condemning guitar makers for the sins of others. Why would you limit that logic to China? I assume you feel the same way about the sins of BP, for example.

I think it makes sense to vote with your dollars, but what are you voting for by punishing Chinese guitar makers specifically?

[1cubilindo]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

The ability to manufacturer similar goods at a fraction of the price comes from *somewhere*.

It's generally accepted that industries of all kinds in China have fewer regulatory concerns than their counterparts in other nations.

There seems to be less infrastructure to support, and things like pension, unemployment insurance, health insurance, workplace safety standards, short- and long-term disability and profit sharing arrangements like 401K probably take a very different shape than we're used to seeing in other countries. Wages and taxes also probably look different.
.

This whole post and some others here are so naive that it baffles the imagination.

It's ok for the US automakers, among other USA corporations, to declare banckrupcy and wipe out whole class of shareholders, and retiree pensions/health benefits alike, yet we point the finger?

We produce cars, SUVs and trucks with that contribute to disprportionately to global warming, yet point the finger?

One of the worst ecological disasters, regulated by this country, is taking place in the Gulf right now, yet we point the finger at Chinese guitars?

Gee wiz.

Sorry rlouie.

[jmcphail]

Well, yeah, it's a guitar forum.

Don't think of pointing the finger, instead think of it as a discussion about the costs of producing guitars. That's actually what I'm talking about.

No need to apologize if you disagree with me, I don't mind.

Originally Posted by 1cubilindo

One of the worst ecological disasters, regulated by this country, is taking place in the Gulf right now, yet we point the finger at Chinese guitars?

Gee wiz.

Sorry rlouie.

[1cubilindo]

Originally Posted by jmcphail

Well, yeah, it's a guitar forum.

Don't think of pointing the finger, instead think of it as a discussion about the costs of producing guitars. That's actually what I'm talking about.

No need to apologize if you disagree with me, I don't mind.

Nothing to apologize for. (Sorry to our Mod, not you)

I have read about the Three Gorges Dam project and the toll it has taken on the environment there, and about industries, like mining, with worker deaths numbering over a dozen per day being the norm. Other countries spend big bucks to avoid those things.

What does that have to do with guitars? or this?

I don't see why the guitar manufacturing industry in China would behave any differently than other industries. It's probably not as dirty as heavy industrial, and probably not as unsafe as mining, but I believe most if not all industries in China operate far differently than they would elsewhere where those practices would be unacceptable.

Nice try though.

[jmcphail]

Very good post airguitarro, thought-provoking stuff.

I think it's easy to see that the overall system of industry in China allows lower costs that are beneficial across all segments.

I said in my post comparing particular costs all business probably share - they probably take different shapes and forms. I believe differences exist.

I also mentioned that I see no reason for any particular industry to behave differently and not take advantage of every benefit available to achieve and maintain profitability, whether it's guitar manufacturing or not.

I don't need specific documentation to know what I like and don't like, to know what concerns me - I recognize those things when I see them. For example - 6,000+ worker deaths in 2004 in China mining industries. This number is astounding to me, and while I know there is OSHA in the United States, for instance, I don't know what counterpart there is in China. Given the number, which comes from Wikipedia, I have concerns about worker safety in general in China industries.

Regarding the Three Gorges project and environmental depredations in the US, you're right. The point I was making is that it is happening now, and I believe it is happening in a pervasive way across many industries. Why wouldn't it be? I'm not saying it's fair or unfair to impose different standards on developing countries, I'm saying that the cost of complying with standards is part of cost of production.

What I actually don't agree with and what concerns me enough to post is the idea of ( I'll paraphrase ) - "Since I haven't seen specific documentation …", or "Since I'm not qualified to understand …." That's not okay for me, personally, when I can find enough information in other areas to draw my own conclusions.

I have no problem with Chinese guitars or people who buy them, and I'm not using words like "condemn", "tarring", or "pointing the finger". I'm not trying to makes those kinds of points.

I'm just discussing what I think are the ways they are able to sell them so inexpensively, it's worth thinking about.

-John

Originally Posted by airguitarro

jmphail, please permit me to propose another alternative view.

It seems to me that your argument would tar every industry that is located in China with the same brush despite the fact that there are no specific facts that have been raised to merit such accusations concerning that industry. Now, that does not seem altogether fair to me. If Mr Chan's Shanghai guitar factory is run properly and well and treats his workers well, then why should Mr Wong's Shenzen baby clothes factory's infringements disqualify Mr Chan from being considered as a worthy maker of guitars?

As well, there seems to be an awful lot of assumptions made about China which I am not equipped nor qualified to judge - e.g. that China has no adequate superannuation/worker insurance/retirement benefits vis a vis its standard of living. Are Chinese businesses not taxed as in America? I don't know, but if you are not sure either, then may I submit that that should be checked out first?

IMHO the fact of the matter is that the main difference is that Chinese wages are a lot lower than American wages on average. But then again, American wages are among the highest on the planet. It is important to realise that most of the world are at a far lower economic level than the US - the norm in the world is not what is enjoyed in the US. China is no special case - they are in the same boat as most of the rest of the world. That is the biggest single reason why Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Mexican and Filipino made guitars are so much cheaper than American made guitars.

The other basis of your view is the Three Gorges Dam environmental damage. There have been grave environmental depredations done by USA, Great Britain etc on their own environments as well, both in the past and in the more recent past.

Also, supposing if China is guilty of doping their economy by not adding regulatory, welfare, superannuation, environmental assessment costs. If China is guilty of this, then most of the developing world is too. Which would mean that USA should only buy from countries that have its own standards in these areas and whose products cost the same as American products.

Which would also end up barring every other country besides some members of the EU, Japan, and perhaps Canada. If Americans only buy from those countries, the American cost of living would rise so high that even basic necessities and consumer goods would be far beyond that which many households can afford. The American way of life would become unsustainable because there is no labor force in the country that could be legally compelled to accept the low wages necessary to generate the low priced goods on which its economy and citizens require.

Also, putting the issue of their different political backgrounds aside, China is where USA was at an earlier stage of its industrial development. Is it altogether fair to expect First World standards on Third World countries? If USA and other developed nations should only buy from other developed nations or countries that follow developed nations standards, then how are the lesser developed nations going to rise up to the level of affluence that developed countries enjoy?