Upgrade in a Collings,SantaCruz,Bourgeois??

[TaylorKoaFan]

Remember that the wood combination is less important than the maker you choose. Among the names you mentioned (and a couple you did not) SCGC, Bourgeois, Collings, H&D... all make great guitars. But find out what their philosophy in voicing and the tonal characteristics that they emphasize. Then audition them...

As has been said many times before, the builders are capable of finding a piece of Sitka that reponds more like Adi than a specific piece of Adi... that's why it is great to trust the name of the luthier.

[Quake17]

I am also a big fan of Adi over mahogany, as this is what my Collings CJ (slope shoulder dred) is. In this market, I think if you look at used guitars you can get a great deal. My only Adi over EIR is a Goodall Traditional dred and it is louder than my Collings. Goodall's seem to take a bigger hit on re-sale but they are great guitars and the traditionals are voiced more like you'd expect. I can't speak to the SCGC and Bourgeois other than I've always liked them too.

[GWF]

There is a really nice pre owned 12 Fret Carpathian Spruce Santa Cruz at Artisian. It is BRW and it's been reduced a couple of times. Carpathian is between German and Adirondak. The sales people at Artisian were very complimentary of the guitar.

[devellis]

Just play a ton of guitars. I have tops in Sitka, bear claw Sitka, Adirondack, and European spruce and they don't necessarily differ in the ways you'd expect. I like them all. A guitar is a complex system and its performance can't really be distilled down to the properties of its various components.

The brands you've targeted are great guitars. But still, play a bunch. Some of the guitars you mention just don't move me while others really do. Ask a different player, and their take will be just opposite mine. Others will be somewhere in between. It's all very personal.

I do believe that some more expensive guitars really do outshine their more humble brethren. I had never heard of a Goodall guitar and the first one I picked up I recognized as something special. On the other hand, other guitars in the same tier as Goodall didn't strike me that way. Again, all subjective.

Ignore what the materials are, at least initially. Take not of what sounds and feels good to you, then look for patterns. Are certain makers or wood combinations starting to win you over? My advice or anyone else's is about what works for us, not for you. Find your own way and enjoy the journey. It's a wonderful process.

Finally, rest assured that no matter what you get, there's a pretty good chance that, at some point, you'll encounter something you like better. If that other guitar that you suddenly prefer had been the one you got first, it too would eventually have been topped by some other guitar. Unless you just keep away from guitars, this is bound to happen. The goal isn't to find the best guitar in the world, it's to find one (not the one) that you can completely enjoy now and for the unspecified future.

[drbluegrass]

"[...A guitar is a complex system and its performance can't really be distilled down to the properties of its various components....]"


No truer words were ever stated. We tend to frequently forget that. I know I do. I've been trapped in the "adi top is the only way to go" dogma for awhile. And I find I have to remind myself that sitka with the right combination of other components can sound even better than some adi/rose combinations.
Acoustic instruments are not only made up of many different components, but some of which are dynamic and even dynamic at different rates (Is that redundant?). That is, they have various environmental influences. It's the sum total of all the components and their compatibility and "synergistic properties", that make up a guitar and its sound.
Sheesh! Did I obfuscate or what?


Tom

[JimR]

I have guitars with Adirondack, Sitka and German tops. Three different species of Rosewood, Mahogany and Maple backs and sides. I like them all, but if I had to choose one topwood for all of them it would be Adirondack. I don't think that, generally speaking, any of the other topwoods typically offer the clarity and note separation that Adirondack does. But that is just my opinion. YMMV

[$ongWriter]

Man, this has turned into a great post...thanks guys.

[dynamohm]

Don't rule out a Martin D-28 Marquis easier to get new or used

[stream]

I agree with the sentiment that a lot of others have already voiced. Those builders make very consistent guitars, but there's enough tonal variation that you may find a Sitka top that you like better than an Adirondack top. Play as many as you can!

With that said, I generally seem to prefer Adirondack and German spruce over Sitka.

[bho]

I just ordered a Collings OM3. The standard top is Sitka Spruce, but after talking to the folks at Collings quite a bit, I am having it replaced with Adirondack Spruce. According to Collings' master luthier, that top will provide for more headroom, richness, and "presence" -- especially over time. He did say that, if I had a light touch and was focused mainly on fingerstyle playing, a German Spruce top might be best.

[1folksinger]

Over the many years I've been playing my 1964 D-18, Until several years ago, I never gave Sitka another thought. The 45 year old box I've owned since new has treated me very well, and now with a neck reset and new frets and bridge, is even better. In 2006 I found (slightly used) a wonderful EIR/ Sitka Collings 0002H, (12 fret, 000 box). It is fantastic. The tone is rich, and the sustain goes on and on. I fingerpick that one, and now use the 18 for flatpickin'. If there's any doubt at all regarding that fine pairing of (Indian) rosewood and sitka, the Collings dispels all notion with one strum. I admit, I am partial to Collings, which to me embodies all the great qualities of a vintage high dollar Martin. As far as "bang for the buck"....any of the dreads or 000's or OM's made with the finest EIR/Sitka combos... all work to further the musical "cause."
If one can find a Brazilian/ Adirondack Collings, think "bang for the Buck" on an atomic level, and be prepared to shell out the bucks accordingly. The beauty of THOSE guitars is that not only do they have a complex tonal makeup, but they also will appreciate in value more than the EIR/Sitkas. I am blessed to have both, and I'm very hard pressed to give up one over the other....since they're very different and very wonderful.
Keep pickin' and grinnin', cheers always.....1folksinger.

[lclyman]

You might also want to look at guitars with Lutz spruce tops. It's been described by many, including master builder John Greven, as sounding like broken in Golden Era Adirondack spruce.

In John's words taken from posts on the Martin Guitar forum:

"It has all of the headroom of the great Adi tops, but is warmer and a bit more complex than Adi and I find the individual notes more articulate with better separation.

I like Englemann and I like Sitka. I used to use them all of the time, back in the dark ages when there were few options for steel strings. They made some very good guitars. Then Adi came along after a 40 + year hiatus and I gave it many tries from a wide range of sources. It was good too, in its own way (better than Englemann or Sitka with its extra headroom component), but none of these woods sounded like the best of the old Martins I have played and loved. None had the combination of power and presence and tonal solidity found in the best vintage guitars.

Then I started building with Lutz. (A short caveat here...there is more than one Lutz. The one I currently use is the hybrid Englemann/Sitka combo. The other one I have access to and have used is an Englemann/white spruce combo, also excellent, but more like German than Adi tonally.) The physical properties of Lutz are not like either Sitka or Englemann. It is harder than Englemann, (more like Sitka), but, like Englemann, it is less stiff across the grain. Its density is about 1/2 that of Sitka, some sets even lighter than Englemann, but the weight to stiffness ratio mirrors Adirondack more so than either Englemann or Sitka, hence the extra headroom.

It is possibly closer to Alpine or perhaps a hypothetical combo of Alpine and Carpathian red. The grain has a realtively strong winter/summer wood contrast with a creamy German like light grain and the deep amber winter wood. There is also a great deal of difference in the hardness between the two wood growths, especially since the winter wood grain lines are quite wide compared to other top species (other than Adi) and I believe that it is the "I" beam effect of the winter wood than greatly increases the longitudinal stiffness of Lutz compared to its lateral stiffness. Most of the other top woods I have used tend to have a fairly uniform stiffness component both laterally and longitudinally when flex tested, Lutz is obviously not like that. My gut feeling is that the combination of stiff one direction and softer the other direction add the complexity and clartiy to the final tone, giving it much of the character of the best vintage guitars made with Adi or Sitka. It is also comforting to know that the longtitudinal stiffness is working to counterbalance the torque of the bridge, thus allowing me to use very small bracing while still maintaining top stability. The less mass the six little strings have to set in motion to convert to sound the better.

Anyway, until you have a chance to hear some Lutz side by side with other top woods, it would be impossible to rationally talk about sound. I love putting a Lutz topped little mahogany 00-12 fret into a players hands and watching their reaction to the explosive power it unleashes. It is shocking (and then delightful as the shock wears off and the fullness of the tone takes over). To my ear it is closer tonally to a real vintage sound than any other top wood currently in vogue and it breaks in very quickly...weeks, not decades. I'm getting old, I want that immediate gratification thingy.

John

LC

[Davey]

Hi All,

I've owned a ton of great acoustics in the past 8 years with many combinations of top woods w/ back and sides woods. I think that it's all subjective and you'll change your mind a hundred times. You'll also find different combos that work better for you as your style changes or progresses. At the moment I'm in a Adi and Mahogany phase with a killer 00 Bourgeois prototype but I also have a great Koa/Mastergrade Sikta Bourgeois OM and an original Bourgeois Banjo Killer that has a Bear Claw Sitka Top with figured Mahogany. These are very different guitars and I use different instruments when the occassion calls for it.
The Adi Top just doesn't break up and though it is loud I go to the Banjo Killer when extra volume is needed.

Have fun,

Davey

[TaylorKoaFan]

Originally Posted by Davey

Hi All,

I've owned a ton of great acoustics in the past 8 years with many combinations of top woods w/ back and sides woods. I think that it's all subjective and you'll change your mind a hundred times. You'll also find different combos that work better for you as your style changes or progresses. At the moment I'm in a Adi and Mahogany phase with a killer 00 Bourgeois prototype but I also have a great Koa/Mastergrade Sikta Bourgeois OM and an original Bourgeois Banjo Killer that has a Bear Claw Sitka Top with figured Mahogany. These are very different guitars and I use different instruments when the occassion calls for it.
The Adi Top just doesn't break up and though it is loud I go to the Banjo Killer when extra volume is needed.

Have fun,

Davey

Welcome to the AGF...

It looks like you've got a great collection of Bourgeois'!

[Matt Mustapick]

No matter how much you might pay, there is nothing "better" than Indian rosewood and Sitka spruce. Prices for woods are determined by supply and are not indicative of "better" anything. Many people have preferences. Sometimes those preferences are influenced by confusion over assumed relationships between price and tonal quality. Sometimes not.