Upgrade in a Collings,SantaCruz,Bourgeois??

[$ongWriter]

I've been looking at the three mentioned brands lately. And I've been looking for Rosewood back and sides and Adi top. And as most of you know that's gonna cost (insert large number of $$$...well you know)..alot. So, I've noticed the normal guitars (meaning the indian rw/sitka ones) ....sell at a "bargain". I'd like to hear from some of you that own these and tell me how you think they compare to the higer priced ones. I have a Martin that isn't Adi topped and it's killer. I've had two guys who sell Martins in different music stores tell me if I ever want to sell mine call them. One of the guys who's an awesome guitar player and is in his 50's said mine was the best Martin he'd ever played. I played some of the higher guitars at Artisan the other day but I didn't think to play the "normal" ones...sometimes normal is great....What do ya'll think?

[SlopeD]

I don't particularly like Adi with EIR, I much prefer it with Mahogany.

Of those builders, Bourgeois will give you the most value in terms of an adi top, check out the Vintage Series from Bourgeois.

Expect to pay around 1k from Collings for this upgrade, but their D1A model is widely heralded and I heard they won't be offering Adi with Rosewood soon.

Sitka and EIR is a winner.

[TaylorKoaFan]

Bourgeois Vintage D!!! It comes with Adi top and Adirondack braces. I really like Martin guitars at a price point, but when you get to the amount of money where you could buy a hand voiced guitar, it pays off IMO.

But it sounds like you have a killer dreadnought...???

[AllThumbsBruce]

Just to throw in another variable ... Collings makes a great D2HG - "German" spruce topped EIR guitar. This is not nearly as much of an up-charge as the Adirondack tops. Recently they have been making these with Adirondack braces. Mine is loud, rich and responsive - an amazing guitar.

I think you should try to play as many guitars as possible. I would even suggest doing something I wish I had done - play them blindfolded. You may find yourself liking the Sitka tops and save some $.

[$ongWriter]

Originally Posted by AllThumbsBruce

Just to throw in another variable ... Collings makes a great D2HG - "German" spruce topped EIR guitar. This is not nearly as much of an up-charge as the Adirondack tops. Recently they have been making these with Adirondack braces. Mine is loud, rich and responsive - an amazing guitar.

I think you should try to play as many guitars as possible. I would even suggest doing something I wish I had done - play them blindfolded. You may find yourself liking the Sitka tops and save some $.

That's a good idea. No matter how much we think we know what we like..a blind test really lets up know. Thanks.

[rmyAddison]

I agree with a few of the comments already made.

While I have Martin Adi dreads over EIR and Madagascar, I too think Adi over Mahogany is fantastic and there is nothing wrong with Sitka over EIR. Personally from scratch I would rather have Engelmann or Carpathian over rosewood for a dread and save the Adi for Adi/hog combinations.

My big 4 is Martin/Bourgeois/Collings/Santa Cruz and I think they are all comparable at the same price points, and it comes down to personal preferences. They all have stock Adi models over EIR, pick your poison........

[JTFoote]

I've played some excellent guitars with Sitka tops. Some of the most warm, lush, rich tones I've ever heard came from guitars that were a Sitka/Rosewood combo. I know several people who have a Collings with these woods, and I've never heard any complaints. Most of the guitars I've played in my life were made with these tonewoods, and I've had several that were outstanding. From what I've read, there are a lot of folks out there who think that the typical brightness of a Collings is mitigated to a certain extent by having a Sitka top, and that the balance is improved by the innate dampening properties of that type of spruce.

But there is that certain something that comes from red spruce that I've never found in a Sitka-topped guitar. Headroom, for one. My attack is moderately aggressive, and I have found that I can almost always overplay a Sitka-topped guitar ... but that doesn't happen with a good red spruce top. This gives me greater dynamic control, as the guitar has additional levels of volume. And then there is the greater clarity ... I like good note separation, even when playing straight rhythm, so that individual tones don't get lost in the mix.

There may some argument about this, but I tend to think that over time, as red spruce ages, it can surpass Sitka in terms of overall sound projection and sheer quality of tone. I believe that both improve with time, but that, eventually, an older, well-made guitar topped with red spruce will simply sound better in every respect over a similar instrument made with Sitka. The best guitars I've ever heard and played were topped with red spruce, and were twenty to 100 years old. BTW, this is only my personal opinion, and YMMV.

Don't get me wrong, I've loved some fine Sitka guitars, and currently own one that is pretty killer. It is particularly sweet for strumming and for playing fingerstyle up the neck. It's the guitar I prefer for songwriting. But my red spruce topped guitar, although only about a third of the age of the Sitka guitar, has already surpassed the other in everything except for the warmth of the tone.

Based on this, if I was in your shoes, and because you already own a good Martin with a Sitka top, if I was considering one of those three makers, I'd be looking at red spruce guitars.

And just to have my say on the subject, I have always been a rosewood fan, and I am very pleased with the combination of red spruce and EIR. I like overtones and extra sustain ... I find that I use these elements in my playing style. Lots of people like mahogany, and I can see their point. But I've become accustomed to rosewood over the years, and tend to look for the tonal qualities of that kind of wood when I test a guitar, because this is what my ears believe sounds the best.

I suppose that is much like what the majority of players think when they compare instruments, with the thought in mind that the Martin sound is the basis for what a dread is supposed to be. Once you've got a certain sound in your head, changing your perceptions can be difficult. The only alteration I've ever made in that preconception over the past ten years is that I prefer red spruce over Sitka, 9 out of 10 times when comparing guitars.

Again, YMMV.

... JT

[bho]

Originally Posted by SlopeD

I don't particularly like Adi with EIR, I much prefer it with Mahogany.

Of those builders, Bourgeois will give you the most value in terms of an adi top, check out the Vintage Series from Bourgeois.

Expect to pay around 1k from Collings for this upgrade, but their D1A model is widely heralded and I heard they won't be offering Adi with Rosewood soon.

Sitka and EIR is a winner.

Why do you prefer Adirondack Spruce with something other than EIR? Also, is there a reason that Collings will cease offering Adirondack with rosewood? Is it based on tonal properties, or wood sourcing?

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by bho

Why do you prefer Adirondack Spruce with something other than EIR? Also, is there a reason that Collings will cease offering Adirondack with rosewood? Is it based on tonal properties, or wood sourcing?

Not directed at me but I agree with SlopeD, I prefer Adi with Mahogany. If I custom ordered a dread it would be Engelmann or Carpathian over Madagascar, and I own a high end Adi/Madi Martin dread. Different strokes....

[catdaddy]

My Collings D2H (sitka/eir) is one of the finest guitars I've ever played. I've auditioned at least a half dozen adirondack topped D1A's and found them all to be outstanding as well; but for me the D2H was at least their equal and without the additional upcharge of adirondack, a better value.

A few months ago I had the chance to compare a D1 (sitka) to a D1A at a shop and I preferred the D1. The D1 had a bit more warmth and woodiness which I found to my liking. Adirondack is often touted as the "holy grail" of top woods but as with most things in life it is not necessarily for everyone. Playing style and tone expectations will conspire to define individual preferences.

[Glennwillow]

There are an infinite number of possibilities and certainly among those, an EIR/Sitka combination could give you an outstanding guitar, particularly from Collings, Santa Cruz or Bourgeois. I have a Martin 000-28VS and a Taylor GS8 with those wood combinations and they both sound very good, particularly the 000-28VS. Plenty of outstanding Olson's are built with this combination, so you know you can get there.

Unfortunately, you just have to keep looking and trying. If you try out enough guitars, you will find some winners. At least the hunt can be fun!

Regards, Glenn

[Tone Gopher]

Originally Posted by $ongWriter

I've had two guys who sell Martins in different music stores tell me if I ever want to sell mine call them. One of the guys who's an awesome guitar player and is in his 50's said mine was the best Martin he'd ever played. I played some of the higher guitars at Artisan the other day but I didn't think to play the "normal" ones...sometimes normal is great....What do ya'll think?

Set your expectations sufficiently low and you'll never be disappointed.

See how much those two guys really want to buy your guitar. It may be more talk than walk.

Play some of the high end guitars. If you can tell a difference and value it, buy it. If you can tell a difference but it doesn't rock your world, move on. If you cannot tell any difference, then there is none (for you).

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

Play some of the high end guitars. If you can tell a difference and value it, buy it. If you can tell a difference but it doesn't rock your world, move on. If you cannot tell any difference, then there is none (for you).

Wow! Brutally frank. But, I must say, I agree.

Especially on a forum like this, it is easy to get caught up in the "This guy says it is the greatest guitar he's ever played, so, mine must not be as good." syndrome. So I will simply repeat what TG said, If you can tell the difference, and you value that difference, buy it. If not, don't. The grass is not always greener on the other guitar.
LC

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Tone Gopher

Set your expectations sufficiently low and you'll never be disappointed.

See how much those two guys really want to buy your guitar. It may be more talk than walk.

Play some of the high end guitars. If you can tell a difference and value it, buy it. If you can tell a difference but it doesn't rock your world, move on. If you cannot tell any difference, then there is none (for you).

What he said.

I played the Bourgeois, Collings, Goodall, H&D, R. Taylor, and Santa Cruz (and others) at two local stores for 3 or so years and was recently struck by one guitar. It happened to be sitka and IRW. Many times prior I did not find the higher priced instruments worth writing the check.

I always took my own guitar to play against others if I thought I was serious and that helps.

One piece of advice for a big purchase if you don't plan on many is make sure it's really covering what you want. With that in mind I became aware and cautious about characteristics that may have been great but not the long haul such as headroom and balanced tone.

You do get diminishing returns as you spend in a lot of areas (not just guitars) but I have no regrets buying my Santa Cruz because it has the characteristics I wanted. If there was a surprise after deciding to get it that was another hour of playing other guitars as much as twice the price because I'd have bought it regardless.

Enjoy shopping and your new guitar.

In the past I was always a little sceptical about adi as I had owned a wonderful SCGC sitka/hog dread that was loud with great articulation. Last week I acquired a new Cruz adi/hog slope and the diffrence with adi is significant...much more bell like and no loss in bass...a much wider dynamic range. If you can swing it, do it. I cant see how someone would be dissapointed with adi in a good build even when its new.