Approval Period on long distance purchase from a private seller, do you need one..?

[rlb9682]

I don't expect or want a trial period from a private seller as long as the guitar is in the condition that I saw when I bought it. I mean, if it's scratched or dinged and the photos and description didn't show or mention that it's a deal breaker.

But a trial period to decide if I like it? Nope. If I"m not sure I'll like it I won't buy it in first place.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by devellis

From the buyer's perspective, the guitar may not have the tone you hear in your head or you may decide that it really isn't what you want, for whatever reason. Although I can understand that sentiment, as a seller I'm reluctant to guarantee complete satisfaction knowing as I do how picky people can be about guitars, how often they can have buyer's remorse after a purchase for reasons unrelated to the merits of the instrument, and how often people "buy" multiple guitars with the intention of auditioning them and returning all but one. In any of these scenarios, the higher the value of the guitars involved, the less the buyer will lose (as a percentage) having to pay shipping. The shipping costs may well be less than the up-charge the potential buyer would incur if buying from a dealer.

I think that what most of us sellers would be worried about.

On the other hand, if I'm buying a $30k Simogyi (yes, I've seen used ones advertised for that), then I might insist as a buyer that I be given an approval period. That sucker better "sing like the angels" when *I* play it the way that *I* think it will.

[devellis]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I never called anyone else a fool. I simply stated that I'm not one. I find it amazing that a couple of people have taken that personally.

I have a very good reason for being careful. Just because a seller is also a member on the AGF, or any other forum for that matter, doesn't mean that there is the chance the transaction will go bad. That can occur for a number of reasons, including out and out scams. For example, what if there is a defect in the guitar that the seller failed to mention? If the seller is advertising it 'as is,' that seller isn't obligated at all to mention it. Sometimes the seller never even uses the term 'as is' which can be very misleading and prone to misunderstandings.... ESPECIALLY if there isn't a return policy. Being as that is just one example of how a transaction can go wrong, I, PERSONALLY would not take any chances. If I did, then I would consider MYSELF the fool.

Toby, I totally believe you if you say you weren't calling anyone else a fool and I understand why you would need to be careful. I like you and respect you as a person and a musician, so please don't misinterpret my comments. But if someone said, "I wouldn't take lessons from Toby Walker. I'm not a fool," might you take it as a criticism? Again, I'm not saying someone is a fool for taking lessons from you by any means, I'm just trying to give an example of how that sort of thing would sound. Now, if the person explained, as you did, that he or she wasn't calling anyone a fool and that he or she had reasons that didn't have anything to do with your abilities as a teacher for making the statement, then hopefully all would be well. But if you just saw that statement, wouldn't it offend you? To be honest, if someone said that about you, I'd be offended and probably jump on them for suggesting in any way that it would be foolish to take lessons from you. To use Tadol's words, it would sound "a bit harsh" without an explanation.

So, not saying that you called anyone a fool. Just saying that Tadol's interpreting your statement that way before you explained further didn't strike me as that big of a stretch. Turns out, he was wrong but his conclusion didn't come out of thin air. The stuff we type, without face-to-face communication, can get misinterpreted sometimes and this may have been one of those instances. Glad you clarified what you meant and hope everybody's cool.

[blindboyjimi]

On the way up the ladder to my current "collection" I must have bought or sold at least 40x on UMGF or AGF. I have never had one problem. Since I buy and sell on both forums, I just ask/give the UMGF rules of 72 hour inspection. Even if I don't place it in my ad, I'd be happy to take a guitar back in the same condition. I always have at least 5-10 emails and a phone call prior to shipping to talk about it and then call the buyer on arrival to make sure the guitar arrived safely and talk with the buyer and if he's satisfied I ask him if it's OK to cash the check or not.

After 40x I have returned 3 and had one returned. The returns were to MFG on a new guitar that was just too similar to a guitar that's a permanent fixture in the collection and the neck was yucky. I paid shipping both ways. Another was a Brazilian Martin that was advertised as crack free. I thought I saw a crack on a photo but was told it was not. It arrived and was indeed a crack and it was open so I returned it. The owner was embarrassed, we discussed a discount, but I really wanted a crack free guitar and it was a small crack so we split shipping. The final was was a very expensive 30's Brazilian Martin that was said to have 3 cracks and arrived with 6 cracks 10 cleats and a popsicle brace and needed more repair work. I thought that was mis-represented. The seller did not so we amicably split the shipping.

My return was a custom shop Martin that was returned because of "the dreaded bridge whisker crack". It arrived with a finish check and I told the buyer it was perfect. Lo and behold, he blew up my photo that I sent him and sure enough it was there (about 1/2" long and I still couldn't find it without holding the guitar just the right way, but I resold the guitar to a back up buyer fully disclosed). I fully refunded him on the spot and I sent the call ticket for the guitar.

I don't think people will pay shipping both ways which nowadays with insurance is about $150 each way, to just try out a model. I just haven't heard of that. Most folks will buy a model that is really cheap and then try it a month or two and sell it on for the same price they paid. We see that a lot here. These are not bad guitars, but folks just wanting to try a great well known, consistent guitar that they've never tried and can't find locally. I buy used guitars all the time. There is a 000-28K Authentic and a 1 13/16" Goodall cutaway that are screaming deals right now and I'd love to try each of them as I know I could sell them in 6 months for the same price and maybe even re-coup part of my shipping costs or lose at most $250. That's a really cheap rental price for a Goodall or a Martin Authentic Koa. No affiliation!

[frances50]

I've never purchased directly from a private individual so I'm not really qualified to answer but....should I have chosen that route, I would have felt better if there was some kind of return policy within 48 hours or so. I've never returned a guitar and I've made three "used/vintage" instrument purchases. But it would be nice to have options.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by devellis

Toby, I totally believe you if you say you weren't calling anyone else a fool and I understand why you would need to be careful. I like you and respect you as a person and a musician, so please don't misinterpret my comments. But if someone said, "I wouldn't take lessons from Toby Walker. I'm not a fool," might you take it as a criticism? Again, I'm not saying someone is a fool for taking lessons from you by any means, I'm just trying to give an example of how that sort of thing would sound. Now, if the person explained, as you did, that he or she wasn't calling anyone a fool and that he or she had reasons that didn't have anything to do with your abilities as a teacher for making the statement, then hopefully all would be well. But if you just saw that statement, wouldn't it offend you? To be honest, if someone said that about you, I'd be offended and probably jump on them for suggesting in any way that it would be foolish to take lessons from you. To use Tadol's words, it would sound "a bit harsh" without an explanation.

So, not saying that you called anyone a fool. Just saying that Tadol's interpreting your statement that way before you explained further didn't strike me as that big of a stretch. Turns out, he was wrong but his conclusion didn't come out of thin air. The stuff we type, without face-to-face communication, can get misinterpreted sometimes and this may have been one of those instances. Glad you clarified what you meant and hope everybody's cool.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I understand what you are saying and I probably could've chosen a better way to make my case. I think your analogy is more personal, i.e, mentioning a name rather than the terms of a transaction. Either way, I can see how some folks might take what I said personally. Looking back, a better way to have phrased what I said would've went something like: 'To purchase an expensive guitar from an unknown seller without having some kind of inspection period would be foolish of me.'

Perhaps the reason it may not have struck you, or others, as a stretch to take things like that personally is that unfortunately, many people tend to do just that, as if it's all about them. It's human nature to take much of what folks say personally, but upon careful reflection, this usually is never the case. Rather, it's just a reflection of their own self. In this particular case, it's much more about me and the way I like to do business.

In regards to what you said earlier, I agree that thorough, honest communication is the key when it comes to transactions like this.

[Pitar]

My curiosity about a guitar has learned not to be inconvenienced by it. In pretty much everything I've played, regardless of the headstock identity, the lesson is play before I pay and I think that lesson has replaced elitism of brand consciousness with level-headedness. All guitars being equal, then, my rule is to make a reasonable effort to visit the guitar and not the other way around.

[rrgguitarman]

The one thing that I don't think anyone has addressed yet is the price of the guitar being purchased or sold. Speaking for myself, I live in So. CA so if I was to sell a guitar for say $500.00 plus shipping to someone in New York, I'm looking at around 60-65 to ship the guitar insured. I really do not think that anyone is going to want to pay $120-130 (if buyer pays for shipping to and from) to get a 48 hour approval.

Having said that, I've been chasing the sound of a J-45 for a long time so I would not buy it sight unseen because the tone of all the J-45 that I've tried vary so much.

My point being is that to me there is a dollar amount where I take the risk of getting an instrument that I may not bond with and as long as it was described properly, its on me.

[SongwriterFan]

I would be tempted (as a seller) to use the "approval period" as part of the "bargaining process" on agreeing to a price.

Somebody who insists on an approval period won't get as good a price as somebody who doesn't ask for one.

And I would definitely want shipping (at least return shipping, probably both ways) paid for by somebody who decides to return the guitar simply because it didn't "feel" or "sound" right to them.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by devellis

Do people expect not to pay for an instrument until after the inspection period? If so, they're expecting the seller to trust them a lot. If they're paying before shipment (which is typical), then they're trusting the seller to honor their word if, after the inspection period, they decide to return the guitar for a refund. Why would you not trust someone to tell you honestly what the guitar is like in the first place but not have any qualms about trusting them to honor a return period? What if they say they've spent the money and can't return it to you? Or that they disagree with the basis for your dissatisfaction? Are you any better off as a buyer than if you never had an inspection period?

Good communication before a transaction is completed, with all the relevant questions asked and answered, is key. And trust is required with or without an evaluation period. It's the nature of long-distance transactions. If someone is a crook, or more commonly just unreasonable, I'm not convinced that the promise of an inspection period is that much of a safeguard. Companies are different. They can be sued or otherwise harmed if they don't deal fairly with people. Individuals can be shamed, I suppose, but if someone is willing to welsh on a deal, I'm not sure shaming them would necessarily be all that effective. You can try taking legal action but that's both expensive and largely ineffective if they're in a different state. You can win a judgment but that doesn't mean they'll pay it. Ultimately, you have to trust them to do the right thing at any give stage of the process. So why not at the beginning? For me, it always comes down to good communication, maybe a bit of checking on the person, and then deciding whether or not to trust them to act in good faith. If not, walk away.

One reason people might want an inspection period even if they initially trust the seller is that they might suspect that the person will accurately describe what he or she sees but that they, the buyer, might still find something they don't like about the instrument. From the buyer's perspective, the guitar may not have the tone you hear in your head or you may decide that it really isn't what you want, for whatever reason. Although I can understand that sentiment, as a seller I'm reluctant to guarantee complete satisfaction knowing as I do how picky people can be about guitars, how often they can have buyer's remorse after a purchase for reasons unrelated to the merits of the instrument, and how often people "buy" multiple guitars with the intention of auditioning them and returning all but one. In any of these scenarios, the higher the value of the guitars involved, the less the buyer will lose (as a percentage) having to pay shipping. The shipping costs may well be less than the up-charge the potential buyer would incur if buying from a dealer.

I understand those motivations but I don't particularly want to serve them. These "benefits" are asymmetrical. As a seller, having an instrument off the market and in transit for several days while someone decides if they want it or not involves several risks, including lost sales opportunities and potential wear and tear on the instrument. That's what dealers, with their high volumes and profits, are for. I don't fault people for preferring to go through dealers and I often do it myself. But I do fault them for expecting to get dealer services from a private seller who is offering instruments at a lower cost than dealers. If someone wants a "test drive," they're free to find either a dealer or a private party who will likely charge more to offset those risks. Chances are, their making that choice will make us both happier.

This.

tencharacterstopost

[tadol]

Just to be clear - I did not mean my comments to be an attack, nor do I take any of this personally. It is entirely possible that my response was jaded by my feelings that we are all starting to reduce too many of the problems we face into sound bite solutions, and if a problem requires a more thorough understanding to offer a solution, anything beyond a one or two sentence statement is too complicated for some -

This is not a question with a yes or no answer - there may be one for a specific individual, and if all parties know that going into a transaction, that's no problem. The most common problem I've had in buying a guitar is the lack of knowledge on the part of the seller - how to check relief, taking a measurement, or getting a picture that doesn't have so much glare that you can actually tell something from it. Most of the time I don't think it's a concious effort to avoid disclosure, it's just general unawareness of what is or isn't a problem, and how to differentiate the two -

As a seller, I always try to provide as much info as I can, and prefer to work with buyers that ask specific objective questions. As a buyer I prefer to deal with individuals that make an effort to get me the answers to questions I have, or try to go that extra bit without being asked. Like asking for a picture of the saddle, and getting 8 pictures back of the bridge and saddle from every angle possible -

That said, there are buyers who feel that even buying a used instrument they should get treated in ways that are somewhat unreasonable. My first Sexauer came from a deal where the buyer wanted a substantial reduction in the price of the instrument because of damage to the back. The seller knew of no damage, and was unwilling to drop the price the rather dramatic amount requested, and had it sent to me as I was the backup buyer. I couldn't find a single issue, and even took it to Bruce to see if he could find it. We decided that it must have been the shallow indent in the back barely the size of a pinhead - something that took a special view in an angled light to even see. Still can't believe someone would even notice it, or if you strummed the guitar even once, that you'd ever care -

But to be clear - if you need a return option, make that clear when negotiating a sale. I for one, would only be comfortable with that within tightly defined parameters, and would generally accept a slightly lower offer without such contingencies. But that's just me - you can be just you - 😚

[zombywoof]

It is far easier to get to take a used guitar home for a bit to give the tires a good kick than a new instrument. My record for guitar procrastination stands at about 8 months during which time I took a particular guitar - a 1956 Epi FT-79 - home on at least three occasions for as long as a month each time. But I tend to stick with stores and individuals who know me. The one time I purchased a guitar cold, the store, even though they did not know me from Adam, sent me the guitar to try out. The only condition was if I chose not to buy it I would pay the return shipping.