Approval Period on long distance purchase from a private seller, do you need one..?

[j3ffr0]

I stand behind what I sell. I have always accepted returns if the buyer is willing to pay shipping, and the return is as it was when it shipped. Anyone who won't stand behind what they sell gives me pause when buying online.

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by brencat

I don't expect a trial period from a private seller, and I personally don't offer one ever as a seller. A dealer is different, but I'd likely be paying a premium to fair value by buying from a dealer, so...that is a service that has a cost.

I think I can reveal that it's DEFINITELY worth shooting Ted a private email to find the deals he offers to members here.
I honestly don't know how he's managing to pay the rent !

Now, if the darned pound hadn't gone n tanked like it just has .... (Oooops ! Politics ! )

The sale of an item involves a contract, written or oral. Conditions for return are therefore terms of the contract. Some sellers offer terms we like and others don't. That in part determines whether I'm interested in pursuing a purchase.

In my case I like to check condition, including things that are difficult to see in photos or may not be clearly known to the seller, and to see if I like the guitar. While I might by a $500 MIM Tele or a $200 MIC uke without a return period, I would not consider buying an expensive instrument without an unconditional return period, knowing that I would be responsible for shipping and insurance both ways if I returned it because I just didn't like it for some reason.

As a buyer, it makes me more inclined to buy at a higher price because all I'm risking is shipping and insurance two ways. As a seller, it gives buyers a comfort level that their risk is lower as well. It works well enough for me as a seller, and I've never had a buyer complain.

To protect myself as a seller, I have good insurance in case of shipping damage and I don't refund the buyer's money (less expenses) until I receive the return in good condition.

Originally Posted by mcbean

Agree fully...the forum classifieds would be a nightmare if you could return over tone.

It may seem like that would be the case, but in practice, it does not appear to be so much of an issue. If they buyer is responsible for shipping and insurance both ways in the event of a return for reasons other than shipping damage or not as described, he is not inclined to make the initial purchase unless he's pretty sure the sale will be completed.

[Montesdad]

I have to answer to both options in the poll -

I need an inspection period from someone relatively unknown to me,
but I am willing to purchase without one, provided I know the seller and/or they have a good rep and references.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

The sale of an item involves a contract, written or oral. Conditions for return are therefore terms of the contract. Some sellers offer terms we like and others don't. That in part determines whether I'm interested in pursuing a purchase.

Very well said.

[DCCougar]

Originally Posted by dreamincolor

As a seller, I'm fine with offering a return option if the instrument is not in the condition as I've described. I'm not OK with offering a return option for subjective reasons such as, "I don't like the tone," or "I think I prefer cedar over spruce," or "I like my Taylor better."

Exactly. A private seller is never going to offer a return policy like guitarcenter, which will take a return for any reason... or no reason. But if there's some flaw that wasn't described, that's different.

So I always consider the "reputation" of the seller, as well as the described condition of the guitar.

I recently picked up online a gorgeous Tacoma-built F412 for about 55% of what I thought it was actually worth. Snagged it real quick without any questions to the seller. Upon arrival, the saddle was distressingly low, making me wonder if it needed a neck reset. I pointed this out to the seller, who promptly said hey, return it and I'll refund your money. (Buyer pays return shipping is pretty standard.)

I ran it down to my guitar man. First thing he said was "This doesn't need a neck reset." Whew. The action was fine, but the break angle, uh, wasn't. He ramped the bridge pin slots, which re-animated the guitar to its full boominess. A $50 fix. Keeper!

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

I think I can reveal that it's DEFINITELY worth shooting Ted a private email to find the deals he offers to members here.
I honestly don't know how he's managing to pay the rent !

Now, if the darned pound hadn't gone n tanked like it just has .... (Oooops ! Politics ! )

Thanks, Jon.

[Toby Walker]

Hi Ted,

Unless I personally knew the person selling the guitar I wouldn't purchase it without at least a day to inspect it. I'm no fool.

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Hi Ted,

Unless I personally knew the person selling the guitar I wouldn't purchase it without at least a day to inspect it. I'm no fool.

That's a bit harsh - I'd guess a vast majority of transactions take place on this forum and elsewhere between private parties without "inspection" or approval periods, and nearly all go perfectly smoothly, with the exception of shipping issues and buyers remorse, and none of those people are fools -

All that's really required is a fair and open exchange of communication - pictures, sound clips, measurements - there's a lot that you can determine about an item before you have it in your hands. If any of it doesn't seem right, you negotiate a price that will cover the possibility of repair, or you negotiate an option for a return. Or you walk away -

But even a return option may not work out well - I was burned by an "established" member of this forum on a trade, and the other party simply refused to return my guitar. All over and done now - but whenever I read about how you can "trust" people with lots of posts, I feel like I need to warn newer members that lots of posts has no bearing on ethics or integrity -

If you find someone selling 3 or more guitars a year fairly consistently, expecting a more "professional seller" experience is not unreasonable. But if you want guarantees, pay the extra money and buy new from a dealer -

[rrgguitarman]

Originally Posted by tadol

That's a bit harsh - I'd guess a vast majority of transactions take place on this forum and elsewhere between private parties without "inspection" or approval periods, and nearly all go perfectly smoothly, with the exception of shipping issues and buyers remorse, and none of those people are fools -

All that's really required is a fair and open exchange of communication - pictures, sound clips, measurements - there's a lot that you can determine about an item before you have it in your hands. If any of it doesn't seem right, you negotiate a price that will cover the possibility of repair, or you negotiate an option for a return. Or you walk away -

But even a return option may not work out well - I was burned by an "established" member of this forum on a trade, and the other party simply refused to return my guitar. All over and done now - but whenever I read about how you can "trust" people with lots of posts, I feel like I need to warn newer members that lots of posts has no bearing on ethics or integrity -

If you find someone selling 3 or more guitars a year fairly consistently, expecting a more "professional seller" experience is not unreasonable. But if you want guarantees, pay the extra money and buy new from a dealer -

Very well stated. Of all the comment about whether you would or would not offer or need an approval period, this is the only one that was very harsh calling some people fools.
Over the last 10 years I have sold over 40 guitars and have bought more than that sight unseen for the most part, never offered a return policy nor did I expect one. I always describe the instrument as accurately as is humanly possible and I expect the same from a seller. I've been able to get deals that I would not be able to get from a Dealer selling a used guitar. Kept some, sold some. I've lost money along the way, but I've had a great time. Just my .02.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by tadol

If any of it doesn't seem right, you negotiate a price that will cover the possibility of repair, or you negotiate an option for a return. Or you walk away -

But even a return option may not work out well - I was burned by an "established" member of this forum on a trade, and the other party simply refused to return my guitar. All over and done now - but whenever I read about how you can "trust" people with lots of posts, I feel like I need to warn newer members that lots of posts has no bearing on ethics or integrity -

If you find someone selling 3 or more guitars a year fairly consistently, expecting a more "professional seller" experience is not unreasonable. But if you want guarantees, pay the extra money and buy new from a dealer -

tadol, you're kind of making the case for requiring an inspection period.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Hi Ted,

Unless I personally knew the person selling the guitar I wouldn't purchase it without at least a day to inspect it. I'm no fool.

Originally Posted by tadol

That's a bit harsh - I'd guess a vast majority of transactions take place on this forum and elsewhere between private parties without "inspection" or approval periods, and nearly all go perfectly smoothly, with the exception of shipping issues and buyers remorse, and none of those people are fools -

All that's really required is a fair and open exchange of communication - pictures, sound clips, measurements - there's a lot that you can determine about an item before you have it in your hands. If any of it doesn't seem right, you negotiate a price that will cover the possibility of repair, or you negotiate an option for a return. Or you walk away -

But even a return option may not work out well - I was burned by an "established" member of this forum on a trade, and the other party simply refused to return my guitar. All over and done now - but whenever I read about how you can "trust" people with lots of posts, I feel like I need to warn newer members that lots of posts has no bearing on ethics or integrity -

If you find someone selling 3 or more guitars a year fairly consistently, expecting a more "professional seller" experience is not unreasonable. But if you want guarantees, pay the extra money and buy new from a dealer -

I never called anyone else a fool. I simply stated that I'm not one. I find it amazing that a couple of people have taken that personally.

I have a very good reason for being careful. Just because a seller is also a member on the AGF, or any other forum for that matter, doesn't mean that there is the chance the transaction will go bad. That can occur for a number of reasons, including out and out scams. For example, what if there is a defect in the guitar that the seller failed to mention? If the seller is advertising it 'as is,' that seller isn't obligated at all to mention it. Sometimes the seller never even uses the term 'as is' which can be very misleading and prone to misunderstandings.... ESPECIALLY if there isn't a return policy. Being as that is just one example of how a transaction can go wrong, I, PERSONALLY would not take any chances. If I did, then I would consider MYSELF the fool.

[SongwriterFan]

I'm not voting.

Yes, I'd *like* to have an approval period if I were buying.

But, no, I wouldn't *demand* one.

I would be very reluctant to *offer* one, either. But if insisted upon, I would make a decision on a case by case basis. Even "after the fact".

I appreciate the trial periods offered by vendors, such as Ted. However, I find myself very reluctant to USE them. I suppose if I received a guitar that was truly a dud, I would use it. But to return a guitar simply because it wasn't perceived as being one of the top 2% of that model (in my mind)? Hard to bring myself to do that. Just wouldn't seem fair to the vendor.

I bought an 8-string Taylor baritone guitar from a vendor once (new, but at clearance since they were no longer a dealer). I really wanted a 6-string, but 8-string was all that was available. I just couldn't get used to the 8-strings. As I recall, the trial period was "only" 2 or 3 days. I called the vendor and asked if I could have another week to try to get used to the 8-strings so that I wouldn't have to return it. He agreed. At the end of that period, I still couldn't get used to it, so I returned it. But I did find something else from his website that I wanted and bought that, instead.

I also bought a used luthier-built guitar from another vendor. Received it, and the action needed adjusting, and I simply couldn't get the truss rod to turn. Took it to a local shop with the same results. Ended up contacting the luthier and was told what size truss rod wrench was required, but even that didn't work out. Eventually ended up working with the vendor and lutheir . . . sent it back to the luthier who then discovered that it was a completely different truss rod wrench size . . one that he doesn't use any more. He adjusted the action, and sent it back to me. All of this required a MUCH extended "trial period" . . . . I think it was about a month long process. Very grateful that the vendor, luthier, and myself were very cooperative and trusting when it came to working this out.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by rrgguitarman

Very well stated. Of all the comment about whether you would or would not offer or need an approval period, this is the only one that was very harsh calling some people fools.
Over the last 10 years I have sold over 40 guitars and have bought more than that sight unseen for the most part, never offered a return policy nor did I expect one. I always describe the instrument as accurately as is humanly possible and I expect the same from a seller. I've been able to get deals that I would not be able to get from a Dealer selling a used guitar. Kept some, sold some. I've lost money along the way, but I've had a great time. Just my .02.

Again, I never called anyone a fool. I just said that I'm not going to be in a position to do something, that for ME, would be foolish.

From the way you describe yourself you certainly sound like a considerate and responsible seller. However, not every seller is like that. Furthermore, every reputable retail online outlet offers a return policy, including the ones that advertise here on the AGF, and they all have a very good reason for doing that. Added to a complete description of the product, along with the terms of shipment, payment and other details, It protects both the buyer and the seller from any misunderstandings.

While there is a difference between the private seller and the professional one, my money will always be best spent on the one that offers at least a day or two return policy.

Finally, I realize that not everyone, including yourself, does this and that's all fine and good - for them, but not me. But.... again, I'm not suggesting that those sellers or buyers are fools. I am simply stating that personally, I would be foolish to enter into a deal like that, as I'm not a gambler. When it comes to laying out thousands of dollars, there's nothing wrong with due diligence, which to me, means making sure all my bases are covered.

Also, read the warning that the mods posted in the classified section. There's a reason for that.

If others feel the risk is worth it then so be it. Caveat emptor.

[devellis]

Do people expect not to pay for an instrument until after the inspection period? If so, they're expecting the seller to trust them a lot. If they're paying before shipment (which is typical), then they're trusting the seller to honor their word if, after the inspection period, they decide to return the guitar for a refund. Why would you not trust someone to tell you honestly what the guitar is like in the first place but not have any qualms about trusting them to honor a return period? What if they say they've spent the money and can't return it to you? Or that they disagree with the basis for your dissatisfaction? Are you any better off as a buyer than if you never had an inspection period?

Good communication before a transaction is completed, with all the relevant questions asked and answered, is key. And trust is required with or without an evaluation period. It's the nature of long-distance transactions. If someone is a crook, or more commonly just unreasonable, I'm not convinced that the promise of an inspection period is that much of a safeguard. Companies are different. They can be sued or otherwise harmed if they don't deal fairly with people. Individuals can be shamed, I suppose, but if someone is willing to welsh on a deal, I'm not sure shaming them would necessarily be all that effective. You can try taking legal action but that's both expensive and largely ineffective if they're in a different state. You can win a judgment but that doesn't mean they'll pay it. Ultimately, you have to trust them to do the right thing at any give stage of the process. So why not at the beginning? For me, it always comes down to good communication, maybe a bit of checking on the person, and then deciding whether or not to trust them to act in good faith. If not, walk away.

One reason people might want an inspection period even if they initially trust the seller is that they might suspect that the person will accurately describe what he or she sees but that they, the buyer, might still find something they don't like about the instrument. From the buyer's perspective, the guitar may not have the tone you hear in your head or you may decide that it really isn't what you want, for whatever reason. Although I can understand that sentiment, as a seller I'm reluctant to guarantee complete satisfaction knowing as I do how picky people can be about guitars, how often they can have buyer's remorse after a purchase for reasons unrelated to the merits of the instrument, and how often people "buy" multiple guitars with the intention of auditioning them and returning all but one. In any of these scenarios, the higher the value of the guitars involved, the less the buyer will lose (as a percentage) having to pay shipping. The shipping costs may well be less than the up-charge the potential buyer would incur if buying from a dealer.

I understand those motivations but I don't particularly want to serve them. These "benefits" are asymmetrical. As a seller, having an instrument off the market and in transit for several days while someone decides if they want it or not involves several risks, including lost sales opportunities and potential wear and tear on the instrument. That's what dealers, with their high volumes and profits, are for. I don't fault people for preferring to go through dealers and I often do it myself. But I do fault them for expecting to get dealer services from a private seller who is offering instruments at a lower cost than dealers. If someone wants a "test drive," they're free to find either a dealer or a private party who will likely charge more to offset those risks. Chances are, their making that choice will make us both happier.