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#1
12-25-2003, 09:03 PM
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Basic Music Theory - Chapter 12 - Altered Dominant Chords
A) altV7 - Imaj7....b5,#5,b9,#9...half-step moves...
B) the tritone (flat-five) substitution C) Building some basic 'jazzy' scales (diminished, whole-tone, altered dominant, others)....emphasis on building...no needle-in-the-haystack approaces... D) Creating altered tones with familiar and simple pentatonics, triads, etc...again...BUILD...find points of resolution....simple one note (one whole note) solo to connect the chords...and build...easy...not difficult...play and hum...hum and find...
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009 
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#2
12-30-2003, 11:33 PM
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how do i use the altered chords or other weird chords as substitution chords or pasing chords?
i've learned only the flat 5 subs....
__________________
1996 Taylor 814C Yamaha CG-170 In Memories of: 2000 PRS Custom 22 2003 Taylor 414ce LTD L3
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#3
12-31-2003, 08:30 AM
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taylorfreak,
I do intend on completing these threads... in an organized step by step fashion....  ...(as opposed to trying to give rehashed-half-explanations repeatedly)......whereby in general what you learn and apply is only one more step complicated than what you've already learned well... I have a feeling that's gonna take a bit of time given my life... and in the meantime I'm sure the threads are gonna get yanked in 48 different directions...that's fine, it's not my forum... hash, hash, hash...partial explanation...makes things seem more complicated than they are to most folks... G7 =V7 = G B D B (edit edit edit... the G7 should be G B D F of course.....typos certainly make things more complicated than they are! end of edit) the 'altered tones' are b5 = Db #5= D# b9= Ab #9 = A# Cmaj7 = I= C E G B... note how every one of the altered tones of the V7 are just a half-step away from one of the tones of the Cmaj7....you can use that fact for smoothly connecting chord forms or spelling out the chord changes while soloing.... but we first learn to do that (smmmmmmoooothly connect the fretboard) with simpler structures.... and we learn to do it *well* nothing is complicated that way...
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Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009 Last edited by mapletrees; 12-31-2003 at 09:50 AM.
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#4
12-31-2003, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Are there other ways to use it?
__________________
1996 Taylor 814C Yamaha CG-170 In Memories of: 2000 PRS Custom 22 2003 Taylor 414ce LTD L3
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#5
12-31-2003, 02:21 PM
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you could use it to move up in a chord progression as well -- change from min7 to 7 and then you are 1 full step away from making a i-iv-V if you so choose.
This is really good stuff but it's giving me a headache! it's so tough for me to see how a chord could be slightly changed to make a really useful chord progression
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#6
12-31-2003, 02:55 PM
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Here’s some Alt dom moves using a chord on chord approach to create jazz lines. Playing a diminished 7th arpeggio from the third of the alt dom leads very nicely into the I of a ii V I. The first two licks show this move. The next one is a full ii V I ( using the relative major arpeggio ) for the ii. Next is the same thing with just some random chromatic notes implanted into the arpeggios.
G7#5 Cmaj7 --------4-|--3--- -----6----|------ -4-7------|------ ----------|------ ----------|------ ----------|------ G7#5 Cmaj7 -7-4-----|------- -----6---|-5----- -------7-|------- ---------|------- ---------|------- ---------|------- Dm7 G7#5 Cmaj7 ---------|-------4-|-3- -------5-|-----6---|--- -----5---|-4-7-----|--- ---7-----|---------|--- -8-------|---------|--- ---------|---------|--- Dm7 G7#5 Cmaj7 -----------------|---------7-6-5-4-|-3- -------------5---|-----6-----------|--- -----------5---5-|-4-7---7---------|--- ---------7-------|-----------------|--- -5-6-7-8---------|-----------------|--- -----------------|-----------------|--- Other classic moves along these lines: try a major 7th arp, down a whole step, over a no-alt dom that's not going to the I, as in blues. Or over an alt dom maybe a major 7th up a half step. All these moves are about not using the right arpeggio over the right chord, which can be like writing on while paper with white ink. By trying other arpeggios you get advantages of not sounding like you’re playing a bunch of roots ( in fact I usually try to not play any personally ), and instead adding a bunch of cool extensions like maybe the 9th, 11th, 13th, etc. Adding the chromatics bring it all to life. **note: the chord names above the tab should be one for each bar, but it didn't post that way?*
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#7
12-31-2003, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
as far as passing chords....there are other choices....diminished chords moving up a half step, dominant chords approaching from a half-step away, you can start inserting V-I's, ii-V-I's, you can approach chords with non-diatonic like-quality chords, etc....
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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#8
12-31-2003, 06:37 PM
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the older thread was by
antsdmb... and was called... favorite chord progressions I can't seem to figure out how to make a link to it... well Daddy, it has taken you nearly three years to figure out how to use the font and italics features....and now you're using them way too much....
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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#9
01-02-2004, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
in case you think this all sounds 'complicated'... in case you think theory is only for the lofty-heads... in case you think theory doesn't really have practical applications.... (min7b5 would seem to be a practical person...after all, he didn't buy a bunch of expensive guitars at a young age like some of you guys....wink...can't get a wink smiley face there...trying to...can't) and this gets back to why Chapter 9 (Chapter9?...I don't know if it's Chapter 9...the one that is titled Seventh Chords)...where was I?...this gets back to why that chapter starts with the statement "viewing seventh chords in terms of simpler triads"... one does not learn music/chord/scale theory so that they may walk around with a big head and put a bumper sticker on the back of their car that says something along the lines of... I'm a Proud Parent of a Kid Whose Parent Knows Some Music Theory....Honk if You Love Me as Much as I Love Myself you learn it so you can put it to IMMEDIATE use doing and playing things you might otherwise not think to play... the point of that little tirade is that learning and applying theory should be a very practical process... skip the altered dominant stuff for a second... and get back to the 'simpler' diatonic Dmin7 chord note what min7b5(the forum member) is playing over the Dmin7 chord... x8755x....an Fmaj7 arpeggio...which is the notes F A C E low to high.... that lets him hit the note E, creating the sound of a Dmin9 chord for 'free'... recall how to build the Dmin7 chord out of the C major scale... which is C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E....etc... start on D and stack thirds.... D F A = Dmin D F A C = Dmin7 BUT you can view the Dmin7 in two ways... Dmin7 = D F A C = (D F A) C = D (F A C) (D F A) C is a Dmin triad with the note C D (F A C) is the note D with an Fmaj triad... we've now ALREADY got four soloing tools for the Dmin7 chord - the C major scale, the Dmin7 arpeggio, the Dmin triad, and the Fmaj triad... if we 'extend' that Dmin7 chord out to just a Dmin9 chord...we get more soloing tools... Dmin9 = D F A C E = D (F A C E) = D with Fmaj7 arpeggio...like min7b5 was using...laying the Fmaj7 arpgeggio over the Dmin7 chord... = D F (A C E) = the notes D and F with the Amin triad... you learn your triads.... you don't lose sight of them... you learn how to use them in simple situations... and then you find when you get to more 'complicated' situations involving things like altered dominants..... well, those situations don't seem so complicated after all...
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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#10
01-02-2004, 07:50 PM
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mooving along....that Amin triad let's you hit the note E..creating the sound of Dmin9
continuing on....getting the 11th, getting the 13th...avoiding the 'white ink on white paper' effect as min7b5 said... the 'white ink on white paper' effect min7b5 was talking about would here in this situation be represented by playing (soloing with) the Dmin7 arpeggio against the Dmin7 chord...there's not enough contrast to keep that interesting....there's nothing wrong with it...but it matches up with the chord too well...it's just not very interesting... Dmin11 chord = D F A C E G = D F (A C E G) = D F A (C E G) get it? Dmin13 chord = D F A C E G B = D F A (C E G B) - Cmaj7 arpeggio in parentheses - use it to solo to hit the 9, 11, and 13.... = D F A C (E G B) - Emin triad in parentheses = F A C (E G B D) - Emin7 arpeggio in parentheses = A C E (G B D F) - Gdominant7 apreggio in parentheses = A C E G (B D F) - B diminished triad in parentheses... all of those can be used to solo against the Dmin7 chord.... you might prefer some to others........ not complicated.... but....chapter 12 doesn't come before chapter 7,8,and 9!!!!!!!!!!!!! counting my bananas....counting my bananas....
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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#11
01-02-2004, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Two, in order to kill two birds with one stone, I’m just using the basic laws of jazz chord substitution. Things like the flat five rule, or the fact that the I, iii, and vi are totally interchangeable, as are the ii and IV. That makes up about 75% of my thinking. The rest would be combination of more esoteric things to do with the dominant chords, and of course just playing the major scale that relates to a group of chords. So when faced with a classic ii V I in C: Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, I’m usually thinking Fmaj7, Bdim7, and Em7. The dominant being the wild card, sometimes it’ll be a G7b9 arp, or maybe an Ab major 7th, etc.. If it’s a ii V I vi than I’ll add an C major 7th for the Am7th chord. I don’t know if that clears things up or makes them worse, either way I’ve digressed a bit so I call it there.
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#12
07-14-2004, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
1- Are minor jazz chords always built around the dorian, or is that just because this D minor chord is being played in the key of Cmaj? 2- If they're only built around the dorian because we're in C major, then does that mean that, say, an Amin13 would have different intervals depending what key we're in (if it's the ii or the vi for example)? 3- If they're always around the dorian when we're in a major key, are they also built around the dorian when we're in a minor key? Or are they then built on a natural or harmonic minor scale? One other thing: could you also use an Amin7 so solo against the Dmin7 to get the 7th 9th and 11th? Or did you leave it out since the Cmaj7 has those and also the 13th? Hmm.. I suppose on looking at it that's a fair number of questions. Hopefully someone can help me out. It's tricky stuff this reconciling classical theory from piano with jazz theory on guitar. Eek. Thanks,
__________________
Andy --------------------------- Taylor 814ce Mex Strat Martin Sigma (the raffle special)
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#13
07-15-2004, 06:23 AM
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underwhelmed....
minor chords are often considered ii chords (dorian)....and the chord formulas don't 'change'...a minor9th is a minor9th is a minor9th..... if you did this in G 5x555x Am7 x5453x D7 then 7x777x Bm7 x7675x E7 then the Am7 and D7 again to 3x443x Gmaj7 the Bm7 to E7 could be thought of as a temporary ii-V in Amaj.... if you were to extend those chords out a bit... 5x5557 Amin9 x54557 D13 7x7779 Bmin9 x76779 E13 then Aminwhatever to Dwhatever to xx5777 Gmaj7 again (or Gmajwhatever) that would all flow... now, the Bmin7 is a chord in the key of G (as iii) as well as in the key of A (as ii) but the way Bmin7 was extended out to a Bmin9 was to add in the note C# - from the key of A.... if you were to add in the 9th (with respect to root B) in the G major scale...that would be the note C, which is actually the b9 of B.... play through the above progression with the note C in there added into the Bmin7 as 7x7778.....pretty icky sounding (to me at least...) someone else can chime in, but that's the way I see it.... from the way you phrased the question, you seem to already see it that way, too... one of the immediately recognizable differences between something that sounds traditionally jazzy and something that does not is the liberal use of temporary ii-V moves....gives a temporary change of key...and again, the phrasing of your question seems to indicate you already know that.... on the soloing thing, I didn't mean to purposely leave out the Amin7 arpeggio (or the Amin triad for that matter) against the Dmin7....I was just rattling off a bunch of examples....didn't mean to imply something would not work....but again, that you're asking seems to indicate you already understand that....remember, trust your ears, not some boob on the internet
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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#14
07-18-2004, 03:51 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up Mapletrees. That's sort of what I figured, but good to have someone tie that stuff together with other concepts (the temporary ii-V's, in particular).
Thanks again,
__________________
Andy --------------------------- Taylor 814ce Mex Strat Martin Sigma (the raffle special)
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