So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

I agree artist should get paid when their work is performed in public, even it's a hack job of a cover, but I don't think some artist should get paid while other artist who's songs get performed not get paid.

I agree, and that's a major complaint from many professional songwriters.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Obviously, there is no way to connect the songs that are played at a open mic to the artist who wrote them? So where does the money go if the fees are paid? Probably the majority to ASCAP salaries and or to perpetuate the organization. I assume a portion goes to a huge pool of artists with the current big names getting the most?

It almost seems like the Mafia that would get protection money by extorting small business that had no defense. Yes, I know that's an extreme example, but it feels similar but under the guise of something noble. All the more hideous really.

I'm sorry I even started this thread, my first open mic trying to have some fun in my hometown and it evolves into this.

Resources are available. It would be in everyone's best interest to research and really understand who these organizations are, who they represent, what they do, and where the money goes.

hunter

[SFCRetired]

You can thank the many people in the past who profited off other peoples music and didn't give a cut to the song writers. It evolved into what it is now. ASCAP and the other organizations know an open mic only helps the writers get their music out but they have to justify their existence somehow. ASCAP and the other organizations came in to existence to protect writers from publishing companies and radio stations and the like, now just like anything they have over reached.

But where do you draw the line when profits are being made? I don't care if its a haircut business or a music business, they control who gets in, who gets paid, and who gets thrown out with the trash.

They really need to start policing writers who plagiarize because I have been plagiarized and had no one to turn to.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

They really need to start policing writers who plagiarize because I have been plagiarized and had no one to turn to.

That's not necessary true. If you feel that you've been plagiarized, there are copyright laws that address that.

[bitraker]

the bigger question for those whose produce intellectual property is "Why should I even bother when I know that what I produce is going to get ripped off the second it sees daylight, and I will spend the rest of my life chasing lost royalties?"

If you feel that you've been plagiarized, there are copyright laws that address that.

Stateside, yes - as for the rest of the world, forget it...just remember to keep your day job

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by bajawatt

Why can I as a teacher quote other scholars (use their intellectual property) while my school collects tuition dollars, but the scholars I discuss don't get a cut? But music works differently. I can perform someone else's ideas, just not their music. I'm intrigued by this.

Actually, I doubt scholars expect to get paid every time their work is quoted. If you distribute their work word for word, then you would be in violation of copyright laws.

I doubt ASCAP would come after someone if one lick was played on an open mic night. Play a whole song though, and now you are distributing work that belongs to someone else without their consent. The licensing fees are the consent.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by SFCRetired

You can thank the many people in the past who profited off other peoples music and didn't give a cut to the song writers. It evolved into what it is now. ASCAP and the other organizations know an open mic only helps the writers get their music out but they have to justify their existence somehow. ASCAP and the other organizations came in to existence to protect writers from publishing companies and radio stations and the like, now just like anything they have over reached.

Actually ASCAP was created to protect the sheet music publishers, and later record companies when radio came along. BMI was specifically created because radio broadcasters balked at a huge fee raise by BMI. It was certainly not to protect performers. Source "How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music"

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

Actually ASCAP was created to protect the sheet music publishers, and later record companies when radio came along. BMI was specifically created because radio broadcasters balked at a huge fee raise by BMI. It was certainly not to protect performers. Source "How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music"

If the performers don't like it, they don't have to join. Isn't that right?

[Jim]

ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are killing small time music. The industry manufactures almost all of the "big stars" taking much of their earnings until they get so big they can begin to fight back, but small time writers and musicians are left out in the cold eking out a living.

I wonder if anyone actually knows how much of the money taken in by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC actually goes to the artists, vs. how much they keep for their own salaries, overhead, attorneys, office space, and all of the other "operating costs". A typical number for a professionally run NGO is around 15% of money taken in is used for total overhead costs. How much do these organizations use for their total overhead costs? My guess is that it is much more, but I would be happy to see the actual number if it is not.

And if they were honest they would divide up the money among every single member. Does anyone who is actually a member know if they get the same amount as the big names? They should since those organizations do not know who's songs are being played at all of those venues around the country. Of course something like radio, tv, and major concerts at the giant venues are easy to track, but the rest would be impossible so the only fair thing would be that every artist who is a member of ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC should get an even share of the total they take in.

The results of killing off many music venues where small or no-name artists can perform is a clear sign that ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC have gone too far and need to get more realistic. They are cutting off their own nose to spite their faces. Of course there needs to be a way for artists to get paid for their work, but this is not the way. At the very least there needs to be an exemption for open mics, venues that are less than a certain size, venues that do not charge for entry, etc. Then, these organizations need to split up the money they get from radio, tv, movies, major concerts, etc. equally or at least proportionally among every single member unless they have a way to identify who's music is being played in every single instance and then direct that money to that artist.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by bajawatt

Why can I as a teacher quote other scholars (use their intellectual property) while my school collects tuition dollars, but the scholars I discuss don't get a cut? But music works differently. I can perform someone else's ideas, just not their music. I'm intrigued by this.

Read up on Fair Use.

hunter

[SFCRetired]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

That's not necessary true. If you feel that you've been plagiarized, there are copyright laws that address that.

I know, but when you are a young novice you don't always have the knowledge to protect yourself in accordance with the law.

[FluffyDog6]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

That's not necessary true. If you feel that you've been plagiarized, there are copyright laws that address that.

The issue here is the hubris of naked bullying.

I, the multi-million dollar "rights" organization come into your mom-and-pop dinner, coffee shop, whatever and hear some music playing.

I demand a fee, that I alone set, that is backed by the threat of potentially devastating litigation.

I wrap myself in the noble cloth of protecting the defenseless, uncompensated songwriters (and the widows and orphans maybe too) though most of them receive pennies IF ANY of the cash I extort.

Most people will avoid any contact with a lawyer at any cost, so the typically small business owner will either remove music from their environment or pay these fees (little of which makes it to the entitled recipients) and await the next predatory "rights" organization to darken his doorstep.

If you have read this far, you have enjoyed the fruits of my intellectual property and must proffer $375 for the initial education fee, and a $50 maintenance charges (billed annually) to continue using your brain.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Jim

I wonder if anyone actually knows how much of the money taken in by ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC actually goes to the artists, vs. how much they keep for their own salaries, overhead, attorneys, office space, and all of the other "operating costs".

Per ASCAP:

"About 88 cents of every dollar we collect is distributed back to our members as royalties..."

They are a non profit. Their annual reports are published. I think this is a real number.

hunter

[SFCRetired]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

Actually ASCAP was created to protect the sheet music publishers, and later record companies when radio came along. BMI was specifically created because radio broadcasters balked at a huge fee raise by BMI. It was certainly not to protect performers. Source "How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music"

Sorry, I had NSAI confused with the others.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

I'm quite sure that if this discussion was being held at a conference being attended by professional songwriters, who are being compensated in part for their works by the royalty collecting organizations, it would be have a completely different tone to it.

One major complaint which I've heard is that the artists do not get compensated enough, or sometimes not at all.

There is another side to this discussion folks.

But surely the kinds of songs that people cover at open mics are not those written by musicians struggling to eke out a living and for whom every penny counts. In nearly all cases, I'd guess that the material is taken from people who've enjoyed substantial profits already and hardly need the meagre dollars that can be squeezed out of a small open mic on a Tuesday night.