Taylor 322-12 fret, 000-17SM killer?

PTC Bernie · #1 04-14-2016, 06:24 PM

I was in Huntsville again and stopped at The Fret Shop for a second time. One of the guitars I had a chance to try is the new Taylor 322-12 fret.

It had a great sound and was wonderful to play. The fit and finish were excellent, and, priced a bit under Martin's 000-17SM, its a "must try" if you're looking for a slot head 12 fret.

To be honest, the only thing that kept me from taking it home was the ES2 pick up. The holes in the body and, especially the bridge, were definite deal killers for me. I'd much rather choose which pick up I have in a guitar, if any. Most likely K&k's mini.

If you're an ES2 fan, this is a definite contender.

rdnzl · #2 04-14-2016, 07:14 PM

I own a 000-17SM and a 322CE 12 fret.

Both are superb. I would not say one is better than the other. Both are worthy guitars.

PTC Bernie · #3 04-14-2016, 07:53 PM

I've played several 000-17SM's and, although they were great guitars, I felt that the 322 just had a much fuller, sound and the fit and finish were better. But that's just me.

It's interesting that you have both the Martin and Taylor when they're so similar.

Rudy4 · #4 04-14-2016, 07:58 PM

It's easy enough to order one without the electronics.

Thumbwrapper · #5 04-14-2016, 08:18 PM

Couldn't agree more on the ES2 and bridge holes. Just played a bunch of Taylor's (few of the new 12 frett ones) and it was my first experience with an ES2 equipped guitar. Those bridge holes jumped out at me like the alien jumping out of its host bellies!

I prefer no pickup and also not cutaway but I do see how the non-cutaway could be even more of an issues on those 12 fret models.

And yes, they sound fabulous!

Xtremca · #6 04-14-2016, 08:23 PM

I've got the 322e 12fret and love it. I haven't got a chance to try the 000-17 so I can't compare the two off hand. As far as the ES2, I think it gets the job done, so I'm alright with it.

cooper59 · #7 04-15-2016, 03:31 AM

not even close. had the 522 which is even better but still a taylor. just mahogany. not even close in my opinion

SpruceTop · #8 04-15-2016, 04:54 AM

IMHO, the ES2 is the best factory-installed pickup/preamp system going. It has a flat-frequency response and picks up string, top and body vibrations and sends the signal, without any onboard enhancement or other hocus-pocus, out to an amp or mixer. It has the immediate attack of a UST with the warming tone of an SBT. Overall, the ES2 is very mic-like in tone and it's well-integrated into the guitar for a clean look.

PTC Bernie · #9 04-15-2016, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

IMHO, the ES2 is the best factory-installed pickup/preamp system going. It has a flat-frequency response and picks up string, top and body vibrations and sends the signal, without any onboard enhancement or other hocus-pocus, out to an amp or mixer. It has the immediate attack of a UST with the warming tone of an SBT. Overall, the ES2 is very mic-like in tone and it's well-integrated into the guitar for a clean look.

Hi Sprucetop!

I wasn't trying to say that the ES2 wasn't a good system. Folks seem to like it and it gets good reviews.

I very rarely play amp'ed so a PU isn't important to me.

My problem is all the holes, especially in the bridge. That's all.

Thumbwrapper · #10 04-15-2016, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTC Bernie

Hi Sprucetop!

I wasn't trying to say that the ES2 wasn't a good system. Folks seem to like it and it gets good reviews.

I very rarely play amp'ed so a PU isn't important to me.

My problem is all the holes, especially in the bridge. That's all.

Agree 100%. Great system no doubt, just not needed for me thus would prefer not having those bridge holes OR paying the extra $$ for something I'll hardly if ever use.

ewalling · #11 04-15-2016, 07:10 AM

If I were in the market for an all-hog guitar, those Taylors would be my first port of call. They look amazing, and the one I played in GC sounded great.

Captain Jim · #12 04-15-2016, 07:58 AM

The Taylor Grand Concerts are nice. Make it a 12-fret... even better. Put in that great sounding ES2 (I play plugged in more often than not), and it is over the top!

I don't get the resistance to a factory-installed pickup system, especially the way Taylor does them. I was happy with the previous ES pickups, but the ES2 is even better.

Playing out in the 70s, I put a sound hole pickup in a Gibson. It looked like crap, sounded about the same, but it was what you did to amplify the sound. I bought my first acoustic with a built-in pickup a decade later - no going back. The only acoustic I've bought since then that didn't have a built-in pickup was a GSmini... and the first thing I did was get a pickup in there.

Sorry for drifting off-topic, but when I think about how we used to do pickups, the options today are great! Especially when you have one in an xx2 12-fret! When I first heard about the ES2 and those hex-heads in the bridge, I wasn't so sure. Saw the first one and thought, "If someone is looking that close, they aren't paying attention to the sound coming out."

I don't even notice 'em, but I sure appreciate what they do.

PTC Bernie · #13 04-15-2016, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

The Taylor Grand Concerts are nice. Make it a 12-fret... even better. Put in that great sounding ES2 (I play plugged in more often than not), and it is over the top!

I don't get the resistance to a factory-installed pickup system, especially the way Taylor does them. I was happy with the previous ES pickups, but the ES2 is even better.

Playing out in the 70s, I put a sound hole pickup in a Gibson. It looked like crap, sounded about the same, but it was what you did to amplify the sound. I bought my first acoustic with a built-in pickup a decade later - no going back. The only acoustic I've bought since then that didn't have a built-in pickup was a GSmini... and the first thing I did was get a pickup in there.

Sorry for drifting off-topic, but when I think about how we used to do pickups, the options today are great! Especially when you have one in an xx2 12-fret! When I first heard about the ES2 and those hex-heads in the bridge, I wasn't so sure. Saw the first one and thought, "If someone is looking that close, they aren't paying attention to the sound coming out."

I don't even notice 'em, but I sure appreciate what they do.

Hi Jim!

Thanks for the input, and that's one of the great things about this obsession we all share. There are no right or wrong answers. It's just about what works for you.

I almost never play amp'ed. I've also done quite a bit of woodworking in my day, so I look at it in a different way from someone who uses it on stage or who does a lot of gigging. The pickup is a necessity and what comes with it is part of the deal.

To me wood has a beauty of it's own and anything that breaks up the lines of the instrument or adds (for me) un-needed holes bumps or other interruptions detracts from the aesthetic.

Again, that's just me. I'm a picky old bugger and I have no problem admitting it

rpatkin · #14 04-15-2016, 09:05 AM

Just got the 2016 322 12 Fret without the electronics from LA Guitar Sales. Took a bit over a month from order to delivery. Great, great guitar.

SpruceTop · #15 04-15-2016, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTC Bernie

Hi Sprucetop!

I wasn't trying to say that the ES2 wasn't a good system. Folks seem to like it and it gets good reviews.

I very rarely play amp'ed so a PU isn't important to me.

My problem is all the holes, especially in the bridge. That's all.

Understood, no problem!

I guess what I find weird is that the Taylor ES2 gets criticized for needing a bunch of installation holes in the guitar but the convenience of the system combined with its tone often isn't mentioned. The ES2 is pretty much a truly plug-and-play system right out of its shipping box. When the guitar is sold or traded you're not losing anything on the system (other than normal overall depreciation value of the guitar for being used) when compared to most add-on systems, some a potential buyer may not want, and some dealers may ask to be removed prior to a trade-in because they won't consider the system's value in a trade-in.

I have a theory that the solution to a problem usually creates another problem and I think this applies to every guitar pickup/preamp system regarding their convenience, ease of use, tone and installation requirements. The Taylor ES2 is superlative in addressing three of these qualities but you get several holes drilled in the guitar to accommodate the system. Installation of a passive K&K Pure Mini only involves one hole for the endpin (along with superglue-slathered transducers) but usually entails the extra cost and inconvenience of using an outboard preamp/EQ device for best tone. Most active systems will likely have either an endpin battery compartment (Taylor and Martin) or a less convenient battery bag in the guitar. Many of these systems also have holes cutout for a pickup lead-wire (UST), and many systems have holes for controls.

Referencing my theory, if Taylor could develop an Expression System without the bridge-holes and have it sound as good or better than the ES2, I'd applaud them. The new system, however, may involve a less visible but just as invasive method of applying transducers to the guitar in order to retain their adjustability. It'll be interesting to see what Taylor and other makers come up with in the future in addressing the pursuit of amplified tone.