New Weissenborn!

[TBman]

Originally Posted by wcap

To be clear, that is not me or my Weissenborn in that wonderful video I posted.

I'm still working on the Weissenborn equivalent of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star at this point!

I know W, but pretty soon you'll be posting stuff in Show and Tell. That's a neat instrument.

[ljguitar]

Hi wcap…

…Sigh…so pretty...

[Highway_61]

I've enjoyed this thread, and I admire the guitar. Congratulatiions.

In regard to Pogreba and the Weissenborn...

[tdq]

I have a weissenborn which I love to play although I'm more a picker. I usually keep in in DADF#AD but sometimes use CGCGCE.

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

The deal with slide is that you can always play flat but should never play sharp.

I have a dobro playing friend who says it's only out of tune if you stop moving.

[syrynx]

Congratulations on the acquisition of the Weiss!

Arthritis forced me to abandon conventional fretting about five and a half years ago, in favor of acoustic steel guitars. FWIW, here are some of the things I've learned (and relearned, and relearned...) since then.

Originally Posted by wcap

The hardest thing for me so far seems to be getting a good sound out of melody lines played on the first string - intonation (and being able to change notes precisely) is a big part of this, but also I just need to get a stronger sound.

A BIG chunk of your intonation issues stem from the fact that the 12 tone Equal Temperament scale is inherently out of tune. It can sound acceptable when playing with other instruments, but playing a Weissenborn or other steel guitar solo didn't sound good at all to me when I tuned to ET with an electronic tuner and tried to keep the bar directly over the fret. Fortunately, I found a series of videos and discussions posted by Steve Kimock on the subject of intonation, demonstrated on an acoustic steel guitar (a squareneck Regal from the 1930s).

Music Lesson or Drinking Beers and Telling Lies? You Decide.

Regal Square Neck – Acoustic Series ~ 1 of 4

Acoustic Series #2 and #3

Regal Squareneck Acoustic – # 4 of 4

The videos total only about 20 minutes, but it'll require quite a bit more time to read the discussion. For me, the investment of time was well worthwhile. After watching and reading, I started tuning my instruments using overtones, rather than the chromatic tuner, and learned how far away from the fret I'd have to play some notes in order for them to sound in tune. My music sounds a lot better now!

Originally Posted by wcap

Also, muting and otherwise controlling noise from the slide/string contact is a huge thing on these things it seems. It is going to take a bit of work to have that all start to come naturally.

That may be the single most important lesson there is to learn about playing steel guitar; congratulations on learning it so early! When I got my first steel guitar, I did not figure this out on my own. A couple of years later, in 1975, when I had the privilege of studying with Western Swing legend Herb Remington, he listened to me play for a few seconds. Right hand palm muting and left hand damping behind the bar then became the subjects of my first lesson.

However: Earlier in the thread, sam.spoons suggested checking out Tom Doughty's playing, and I heartily concur with this suggestion. Due to physical disability, Tom cannot mute, block or damp conventionally with either hand, but he manages to make magic anyway

Originally Posted by wcap

Also, I need to figure out how to get more different chords out of this thing given that everything is played with the slide.

Even given the limitations of, in effect, a single straight metal finger, there are enormous harmonic possibilities even in a simple triad tuning like D A D F# A D. The secret is, don't be greedy; a single note in addition to the melody is frequently all that's required.

[mstuartev]

Originally Posted by Highway_61

I've enjoyed this thread, and I admire the guitar. Congratulatiions.

In regard to Pogreba and the Weissenborn...

Larry adorns most of his weissenheimers (as he calls them) with coin fret markers. Both my standard and baritone Weiss have a variety (from all over the hemisphere). Exquisite pieces of folk art. Salvaged wood (mahogany from a tree blown down in a hurricane, etc). Sound wunnerful and a kick to own.

I promise to try and get some recordings posted.
ME

[wcap]

There are so many great useful comments from people here. I'm in a hurry and can't reply to all of them just now, but thanks! And all the links are going to be really useful once I have some time to work through them.

Originally Posted by syrynx

Congratulations on the acquisition of the Weiss!

Arthritis forced me to abandon conventional fretting about five and a half years ago, in favor of acoustic steel guitars. FWIW, here are some of the things I've learned (and relearned, and relearned...) since then.



A BIG chunk of your intonation issues stem from the fact that the 12 tone Equal Temperament scale is inherently out of tune. It can sound acceptable when playing with other instruments, but playing a Weissenborn or other steel guitar solo didn't sound good at all to me when I tuned to ET with an electronic tuner and tried to keep the bar directly over the fret. Fortunately, I found a series of videos and discussions posted by Steve Kimock on the subject of intonation, demonstrated on an acoustic steel guitar (a squareneck Regal from the 1930s).

Music Lesson or Drinking Beers and Telling Lies? You Decide.

Regal Square Neck – Acoustic Series ~ 1 of 4

Acoustic Series #2 and #3

Regal Squareneck Acoustic – # 4 of 4

The videos total only about 20 minutes, but it'll require quite a bit more time to read the discussion. For me, the investment of time was well worthwhile. After watching and reading, I started tuning my instruments using overtones, rather than the chromatic tuner, and learned how far away from the fret I'd have to play some notes in order for them to sound in tune. My music sounds a lot better now!



That may be the single most important lesson there is to learn about playing steel guitar; congratulations on learning it so early! When I got my first steel guitar, I did not figure this out on my own. A couple of years later, in 1975, when I had the privilege of studying with Western Swing legend Herb Remington, he listened to me play for a few seconds. Right hand palm muting and left hand damping behind the bar then became the subjects of my first lesson.

However: Earlier in the thread, sam.spoons suggested checking out Tom Doughty's playing, and I heartily concur with this suggestion. Due to physical disability, Tom cannot mute, block or damp conventionally with either hand, but he manages to make magic anyway



Even given the limitations of, in effect, a single straight metal finger, there are enormous harmonic possibilities even in a simple triad tuning like D A D F# A D. The secret is, don't be greedy; a single note in addition to the melody is frequently all that's required.

Thanks for all the insights and tips here. Much appreciated.

I spent about an hour with Dan Schwartz ( http://www.danschwartz.net/ ) when I bought this thing. He had it on loan from his freind Troy Marcio, who had built it and who wanted to sell it, and Dan sold it to me for him.

Dan is a great musician - a very impressive guitar player and plays his Weissenborn more cleanly than I've heard in any of the videos I've listened to of other people playing these things (there is so much string/slide noise in many of the videos). He gave me a few tips on muting, slides, and a few other things (though I think there is a lot more I could learn from him).

Regarding playing chords other than major chords, I like your comment about not being greedy. And one of the things Dan showed me was how just playing a bass note and then jumping up higher and playing a partial bar chord can bring in a critical note to the sound to make it sound like you played, say, a minor chord (it seemed sort of like a cool trick at first, but it is really just like like playing an arpeggiated chord really, which I do all the time on standard guitars of course.). Makes a lot of sense, but still, figuring these things out in actual practice is going to take me some time. I think learning some arrangements by other folks is going to help make the possibilities much more clear to me.

There is so much more I want to write here, but alas, I have a busy couple of days ahead that don't involve musical matters, so I'd best stop now.

Thanks everyone for all your comments and suggestions.

Though I'm sometimes feeling a bit of despair over the matter of whether I'm ever going to sound good with this instrument, I know I really just need to be patient and plug away at this.

And I am indeed sounding better each day.

it still sounds a bit too much like I'm playing a theramin, but my tone and volume is much better at least! It is amazing how much good left hand muting to the left of the slide not only improves the tone, but also the volume!

[wcap]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi wcap…

…Sigh…so pretty...

Indeed, and I didn't even take the time to take good photos (I shot these photos with my smart phone in bad lighting minutes after I brought this home!). The koa is prettier than what you can see in these photos.

Sometimes, I'll admit, I get this thing out just to look at it!

And a nice thing with a Weissenborn is that if it has a pretty top like this you can see it while you are playing - it is facing you rather than facing away from you as with a standard guitar.

So, there are multiple aesthetic pleasures with this thing.

I didn't know what it was going to look like before I went to pick it up, and I didn't think I would like the rope pattern binding if it were to have that (though I was so excited to have ANY Weissenborn available that I really didn't care what it would look like), but really it is quite cool. And the binding is all wood. A lot of labor went into building this, particularly considering how little Troy charges for these (and I got this for half the normal price due to the (repaired) crack).

I hope I can eventually get to the point where the quality of music I make with this thing matches the instrument's physical beauty!

[syrynx]

Originally Posted by wcap

I spent about an hour with Dan Schwartz ( http://www.danschwartz.net/ ) when I bought this thing. He had it on loan from his freind Troy Marcio, who had built it and who wanted to sell it, and Dan sold it to me for him.

Dan is a great musician - a very impressive guitar player...

I enthusiastically agree! I've seen and/or heard clips of some of his work in New Roots Duo and Neighborhood Trio.

Originally Posted by wcap

...and plays his Weissenborn more cleanly than I've heard in any of the videos I've listened to of other people playing these things (there is so much string/slide noise in many of the videos).

Again I agree. I think you'll find that pedal steel and electric lap steel players such as Dan (and Joe Savage and Cal Hand, to name a couple more of your steel playing neighbors) are much more assiduous about muting, damping and blocking than the majority of players whose only steel guitar is a Weissenborn.

Originally Posted by wcap

He gave me a few tips on muting, slides, and a few other things (though I think there is a lot more I could learn from him).

If you could arrange formal lessons with Dan, even on an irregular and/or infrequent basis, I'm sure you would find that the feedback, both positive and negative, would be well worth the investments of time and money.

Given the excellent taste and strong work ethic apparent from the clips linked in your sig, I'm confident you'll eventually be making music that meets your high standards, and I hope to have the privilege of hearing it.

[Guitarbench]

Originally Posted by mstuartev

Larry adorns most of his weissenheimers (as he calls them) with coin fret markers. Both my standard and baritone Weiss have a variety (from all over the hemisphere). Exquisite pieces of folk art. Salvaged wood (mahogany from a tree blown down in a hurricane, etc). Sound wunnerful and a kick to own.
ME

Lucky man! Larry's weissenborns are pretty potent! I started out on a Iseman which is very nice, a more mellow, laid back sound but lucked into a Bear Creek.

Nice to see some weissenborn players on AGF!

[wcap]

Originally Posted by syrynx

If you could arrange formal lessons with Dan, even on an irregular and/or infrequent basis, I'm sure you would find that the feedback, both positive and negative, would be well worth the investments of time and money.

Indeed, if I can find the time (maybe in the summer?... I'm a college professor and there's just no time to think when I'm teaching), I think this would be a great thing to do. I think I ought to spend some serious time with the instrument first though to have feedback be worthwhile.

Originally Posted by syrynx

Given the excellent taste and strong work ethic apparent from the clips linked in your sig, I'm confident you'll eventually be making music that meets your high standards, and I hope to have the privilege of hearing it.

Gosh, thanks.

I'm less confident than you seem to be that I'm going to have good sounds coming out of this thing any time soon. Quite frankly, I'm finding this instrument frustrating. As I said in another post, I'm sounding a lot like a theramin a lot of the time, and it really bugs me! I think maybe I just need to sit and practice playing various intervals with the slide until I can land the destination notes with more reliable accuracy (and as in theatrical acting, "moving with purpose" rather than in vague uncertainty makes all the difference too!). Also, I'm realizing that a lot of the magic of the sound comes from the vibrato, and so I've got to get that down. Again, I need to just keep in mind how long it has taken me to master other new techniques in the past (and how it felt like I was never going to achieve mastery), and just keep stubbornly and systematically plugging away at it.

(Regarding vibrato, this used to seem very awkward and unnatural to me on a standard guitar, but I just clumsily kept trying to do it. Now it just happens (on standard guitars)without me thinking about it!)

[syrynx]

Originally Posted by wcap

I'm less confident than you seem to be that I'm going to have good sounds coming out of this thing any time soon.

I didn't say "soon;" I said, "eventually." It's a new (to you) instrument, and your 10,000 hour clock just started afresh. Fortunately, the 10,000 hours are metaphorical, not literal. But you'll still need to put in a lot of time before you get where you want to be.

For my own motivation, I relied heavily upon a couple of statements by very accomplished players to remind me that it wasn't quick or easy for them, either. These are paraphrases rather than quotes to which I can link, because I found them in paper magazines back in the pre-Internet days:

The late Mike Auldridge said (in either Pickin' or Frets, in the late '70s or early '80s) that he sometimes spent 12 to 15 hours a day working on a single lick.



Tuck Andress said (in Guitar Player, in the '80s) that he committed himself to working on musical ideas not knowing whether it would take him ten, twenty, or thirty years to be able to execute them, or indeed whether he would ever be able to do so. (Music starts @~2:00.)



These statements have been pretty continuously in my mind since my own 10,000 hour clock started afresh, about five and a half years ago. At that time, I was forced to accept the fact that, due to arthritis, conventional fretting would always be more painful than pleasurable to me. Taking inspiration from David Lindley, Harry Manx, and Kelly Joe Phelps, I began developing acoustic lap steel accompaniments for my original songs. Though I'd been playing steel guitars with and without pedals for 35 years at that point, I had to devise completely new-to-me ways of playing, while singing at the same time (something I'd never done previously). The project is far from finished, but I'm pleased and encouraged by my progress, and as a spinoff I've come up with nearly two dozen original instrumental tunes.

Perhaps this is merely a prolix way of saying, "Patience, Grasshopper!"

[wcap]

About a week into this now I'm actually a little surprised by how fast things are improving. Still a long way to go, and I'm expecting it will be at least a year before I really start to have any sort of feeling of real competency, but I'm actually making sounds that are much more music-like, and starting to come up with some ideas for some new pieces (that I probably won't be able to play competently for quite some time after I create them!).

I'm now sort of sick of my first piece that I started working on - Look So Good, and I don't think I'm going to really have that sounding really good until a lot of other things come together.

I need a new goal that I'm more driven to want to play. So I downloaded tablature for Thomas Oliver's arrangement of the Jurassic Park theme. This is how I have always operated in learning instruments - I don't necessarily choose "beginner" pieces, but rather things that I REALLY want to learn to play, and that's what keeps me going. And from each new piece I learn some new technique, or lick, or approach to arranging, and these all become internalized and help to develop my toolbox that I can draw upon in new contexts.

The Jurassic Park theme now has me needing to get better sound out of the low notes (I finally got the high melody lines on the 1st string sounding much better). And I'm thinking that I really need to order a different slide - I think I need one with more of a rounded tip - this was a recommendation from the guy I bought this instrument from, and I can see he is correct. I wrote down the model of slide he uses, and need to order one.

Also, a really useful thing about working with this Jurassic Park arrangement is that it is helping me to better see how to work up arrangements with more complex melodies and with more complex chordal sounds.

Check back with me in 6 months or a year.... I might have this piece down (and playing it cleanly) by then if I'm doing really well. Maybe.

-------------

Some of my past stories of learning new instruments:

On 5-string banjo, I played Cripple Creek (frailing) and Foggy Mountain Breakdown (Scruggs style) over and over and over and over ....... and over and over and over...... and over and over and over again, really badly for about a year. Then I started adding pieces, and I played everything pretty badly for another year or so. Then everything really started to come together, and all of these pieces that I'd been working on started to simultaneously sound pretty good.

Then, years later, when in grad school, I pretty much worked, ate, and slept, and filled in most of my down time with banjo playing, and banjo playing played a really important role in clearing my head during the most intense periods of grad school. Interestingly, the times when I was working the hardest and getting the most done were the times when I played the most banjo, sometimes averaging at least 3 or 4 hours a day (really, I wasn't doing much else besides working, and had no family or kids, no other job, and few other responsibilities). It was really amazing how much my playing improved during that time period! I mean, the improvement was dramatic.

__________________

Another story: For many years I was utterly fascinated with the Spanish classical guitar piece Recuerdos de la Alhambra, which, if I recall correctly, consists of about 1600 notes played rapidly and continuously using the tremolo technique. I experimented with this for years, and had no idea how it was played. Then when I got seriously into guitar about 10 years ago, I found tablature for this piece. I tried working on it every once in a while, but repeatedly gave up, not seeing how it was ever going to happen. Then one day the tremolo technique actually started to work. Shortly after that, I spent some months memorizing the piece, and then for at least a year after that I played through the piece several times a day (along with other guitar playing). Finally, after an estimated 1000 times playing the piece, I had it down to the point where I almost thought I'd be able to perform it!

These things do indeed take time.

I sometimes have people say how talented they think I am musically (as though I have some innate talent that they don't have or something). What they don't typically have any comprehension of is how much time has been spent doing this! If I have any particular talent, I think it is mostly in the area of having stubborn persistence, and having an intense desire to master instruments. And this is most commonly driven by an intense desire to master particular pieces that I love. If there is anything different about me - and different about lots of other folks here on AGF too I suspect - compared to non-musicians, it might simply be that we are moved much more deeply by musical sounds and patterns, and this perhaps provides us with a deeper motivation that some other folks might not have.

Regarding this Weissenborn: I do worry a bit about it potentially competing too much with my other instruments for my time. And in this regard, I'm seeing that I'm going to have to be intentional to not ignore the other instruments for too long at a stretch lest I lose my callouses!

[syrynx]

Here's another gift to the world from Dan Schwartz, just uploaded today.



With regard to bars: I wrote a lengthy treatise with lots of video clips on another forum a couple of years ago. TL;DR: It's personal. But there are two principal styles utilized by the vast majority of players:

Cylindrical bars with a hemispheric (bullet) nose are favored by a majority of Hawai'ian and Western Swing players, a lot of Country steelers, and some Blues and Rock players. Brand names are legion; materials include stainless steel, various chrome-plated metals, various plastics, glasses, and ceramics. Some of them get pretty pricey. There is good reason for their popularity (and the passion of their proponents): They're excellent for forward and reverse slants, and if they're large enough in diameter they permit bending strings behind the bar.



Most Bluegrass, most Sacred Steel, many Blues and Rock, and some Country players favor (also with good reason) so-called ergonomic bars with rails for gripping, and with squared or even sharpened ends which permit rapid hammers and pull-offs. Brand names include Stevens, Dunlop, Shubb-Pearse, Tipton, Scheerhorn, Swallows, and others. Some of these get pretty pricey, too. Depending on the individual player and the specific bar, they may also work well for bending strings behind the bar and for forward slants, but in most instances inhibit reverse slants.



Personally, I have one foot planted in each camp. All of my acoustic lap steel playing is accomplished with a Shubb SP-2, a rail-style bar which has one end rounded and the other squared off. On my electric lap steels, when playing with other musicians and not obliged to supply accompaniment with my thumb, I use a cylindrical, bullet-nosed Dunlop 919--the same one used and recommended by the late Jerry Byrd, which by pure coincidence happens to fit and suit me as well.

If you have special physical needs, or a really strong desire to use multiple slides simultaneously, I invite you to check out my original post.

In the two years since I wrote that post, there's been a new development called the Pedal Slide, which in the right left hand can address the "single straight metal finger" issue. Here's a demo...



And a couple of informative discussions of the bar on the Steel Guitar Forum:

Pedal Slide?

Pedal Slide

Regarding the neglect of other instruments in favor of the Weiss, I didn't have a problem dividing my time. I found that, while I used the same muscles to play both steel guitar and fretted instruments, I used them differently. I actually could play longer without fatigue when a steel guitar was part of the mix.

[Glennwillow]

Congrats on the Weissenborn, wcap! A new adventure! Best of luck with this new challenge!

- Glenn