Help! Martin d10e vs seagull s6 classic black

[Wellington]

The consensus on this forum is definitely going to side with all solid, but to be honest laminate gets a bad rap when I think it's not that simple. I have an all solid Yamaha LL16, I compared it directly to the ll6 when I bought it, which is the same thing but with laminate b/s. At the time anyway I couldn't tell any difference, if I could go back in time I'd probably buy the LL6. I've played lots of really good sounding laminates and it's nice that they're more stable.

[Robin, Wales]

Just to clarify,

The change of neck fixing in 2006 by Godin wasn't just a switch to using epoxy glue. It was a completely different neck design. It is not the neck that's glued to the body - the heel contacts with a non-glued joint that's bolted. It is the neck extension - a separate section of wood - that is epoxy glued into a recessed box under the fingerboard. Even if this was hide glued it would be very, very difficult to get at to steam release the glue as it is a 3 sided bond over about 3 inches under the fingerboard. I expect that Godin has used epoxy because the box and the neck extension are not an interference fit, so using a space filling glue makes sense for vibration transfer and stability.

Robert Godin has always taken an engineer's approach to guitar building. The neck extension, the 7 layered laminated No1 brace and the compound curve in the top under the fingerboard are all designed to stop the top of the guitar collapsing to towards the sound hole and the neck lifting. If a guitar comes out of the factory with a good neck angle geometry it should stay that way.

Another reason for resetting a neck is because of excess bellying - but the neck reset doesn't actually fix the bellying. You can fix bellying without resetting the neck. And Godin does not lightly build the tops - they do seem to be wall braced with Adirondack braces across all models.

So, all in all, you are going to struggle to remove a Godin neck but you are less likely to need to do so because a major cause for the need for neck resets on "traditional" guitars has been designed out.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

[davenumber2]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Just to clarify,

The change of neck fixing in 2006 by Godin wasn't just a switch to using epoxy glue. It was a completely different neck design. It is not the neck that's glued to the body - the heel contacts with a non-glued joint that's bolted. It is the neck extension - a separate section of wood - that is epoxy glued into a recessed box under the fingerboard. Even if this was hide glued it would be very, very difficult to get at to steam release the glue as it is a 3 sided bond over about 3 inches under the fingerboard. I expect that Godin has used epoxy because the box and the neck extension are not an interference fit, so using a space filling glue makes sense for vibration transfer and stability.

Robert Godin has always taken an engineer's approach to guitar building. The neck extension, the 7 layered laminated No1 brace and the compound curve in the top under the fingerboard are all designed to stop the top of the guitar collapsing to towards the sound hole and the neck lifting. If a guitar comes out of the factory with a good neck angle geometry it should stay that way.

Another reason for resetting a neck is because of excess bellying - but the neck reset doesn't actually fix the bellying. You can fix bellying without resetting the neck. And Godin does not lightly build the tops - they do seem to be wall braced with Adirondack braces across all models.

So, all in all, you are going to struggle to remove a Godin neck but you are less likely to need to do so because a major cause for the need for neck resets on "traditional" guitars has been designed out.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

I have two Seagulls, one pre-2006 and one post. I'm not worried about either of them. They are the two smoothest playing guitars I have and they are rock solid. Great neck angles, tall saddles and low action. They both sound great too. When you consider the price I paid (used) for each of them the value is just ridiculous. If one got destroyed or stolen they are cheap enough to just go find another one. I feel Seagulls are consistent enough that you can do that and not worry too much about getting a dud. The resistance to humidity swings is an added bonus being laminated b/s but the laminate in no way detracts from the overall tone.

[catdaddy]

Originally Posted by MTA88

Got a few days to kill time before I make the purchase

Should I consider any of the solid top laminate line martins before I go for the d10e?

Or all solid design is vastly superior as many would seem to believe online

I’m seeing there are posts for laminate sides and back
And posts for solid sides and back.

Not trying to start a heated discussion or anything here

I’m genuinely curious whether it makes a big difference and would like some informed and experienced opinions on the matter .

The benefits of the laminate are humidity resistance and durability
Question remains whether it truly does affect tone in a big way (sides and back only )

Reason i ask is there seems to be a lot of folk who have brought the importance of all solid into question as of late compared to solid top + laminate back and sides

Anyways cheers

Thanks for the responses and info

Since you asked. I have no problem at all with guitars that have laminate back and sides. As I mentioned previously, I owned a Seagull S6 cedar top with cherry laminate back & sides. It was a fine sounding instrument. Currently I own a Voyage Air VAD-04 with a spruce top and lam back and sides. It's versatile, sounds good and handles temperature and humidity changes exceptionally well, which makes it an ideal travel guitar. I also have a Martin 000X1AE which has HPL back and sides and a solid spruce top. It's a great sounding guitar that continually surprises me with its tone and responsiveness, especially considering its price point. I suspect that some folks dismiss guitars made with laminate back and sides because they tend to be associated with a lower cost and because of that it is assumed they must be of lower quality which is certainly not always the case.

Having said that, I've never come across a guitar with laminate back and sides that is comparable to the tone of an all-solid wood mahogany topped instrument like my J-15. Perhaps that's because I've never come across a solid mahogany topped guitar that has had laminate back and sides. Is such an instrument made?

[davenumber2]

Originally Posted by catdaddy

Perhaps that's because I've never come across a solid mahogany topped guitar that has had laminate back and sides. Is such an instrument made?

There are some models in the Alvarez Artist series with solid mahogany tops and laminated mahogany back and sides. I used to own the AP66, which has those specs, and it was a nice sounding guitar.

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by Ed66

Just to muddy the water for you I'll say that Seagulls S6 with cedar is a fantastic guitar. I've sampled up and down the Seagull line and, bang for your buck, you just can't beat an S6 with a cedar soundboard. The epoxy neck issue is, for me, a throwaway. Never had to reset a neck and at the price point you're looking at its doubtful you'd ever choose to do so. It's too bad you can't sample them side by side, but I'm sure you'd be happy with the S6.

You make a very good point. I just googled the cost to reset a guitar neck.
At this price point it would be almost the cost of the entire guitar.
And the seagull s6 still sounds the best out of all IÂ’ve heard . In fifteen years hell I can just get another s6 if it serves me well at that price point. Comes down to whether I wanna have an instrument that I can pass on to the next generation or whether I just go with the amazing value of the seagull and accept its 15 year possible expiry date. Someone else posted something that caught my eye.

U donÂ’t get a cat thinking that the kitty will be dead in 15 years .
The seagull may very well give me 15 years of joyful musical bliss.
The wife loves the seagull sound above the rest . IÂ’ll have to discuss it with her and come to a decision. The legacy of a Martin and the generational value it holds vs the seagull musical bliss at an affordable price. Two complete different ways of looking at a guitar.

A musical instrument to last through the years to pass down.

Vs an affordable musical tool that can get old and have to be replaced like a fancy car

I dunno. Tough decision .

Seagull says the Epoxied necks enhances the tone. Maybe it does ?
But at 500us u really canÂ’t complain.

Then there is the Eastman E2D cedar top to consider

Yea IÂ’m once again a mess lmao

Appreciate the info though. Will contemplate my decision keeping in mind that this may just be the beginning of a guitar collection it seems

Lol

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Just to clarify,

The change of neck fixing in 2006 by Godin wasn't just a switch to using epoxy glue. It was a completely different neck design. It is not the neck that's glued to the body - the heel contacts with a non-glued joint that's bolted. It is the neck extension - a separate section of wood - that is epoxy glued into a recessed box under the fingerboard. Even if this was hide glued it would be very, very difficult to get at to steam release the glue as it is a 3 sided bond over about 3 inches under the fingerboard. I expect that Godin has used epoxy because the box and the neck extension are not an interference fit, so using a space filling glue makes sense for vibration transfer and stability.

Robert Godin has always taken an engineer's approach to guitar building. The neck extension, the 7 layered laminated No1 brace and the compound curve in the top under the fingerboard are all designed to stop the top of the guitar collapsing to towards the sound hole and the neck lifting. If a guitar comes out of the factory with a good neck angle geometry it should stay that way.

Another reason for resetting a neck is because of excess bellying - but the neck reset doesn't actually fix the bellying. You can fix bellying without resetting the neck. And Godin does not lightly build the tops - they do seem to be wall braced with Adirondack braces across all models.

So, all in all, you are going to struggle to remove a Godin neck but you are less likely to need to do so because a major cause for the need for neck resets on "traditional" guitars has been designed out.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

This is extremely interesting .

Points well made

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by davenumber2

I have two Seagulls, one pre-2006 and one post. I'm not worried about either of them. They are the two smoothest playing guitars I have and they are rock solid. Great neck angles, tall saddles and low action. They both sound great too. When you consider the price I paid (used) for each of them the value is just ridiculous. If one got destroyed or stolen they are cheap enough to just go find another one. I feel Seagulls are consistent enough that you can do that and not worry too much about getting a dud. The resistance to humidity swings is an added bonus being laminated b/s but the laminate in no way detracts from the overall tone.

Cedar takes humidity like a boss
And so does laminate

The s6 does fit the bill.
And I’ve come across a ton of folks insisting the s6 is one of the best guitars they have ever played .

I’ll be sure to let u guys know what I get and maybe post a video or two.

Be it the seagull s6
Martin d10e sapele
Or Eastman E2D

Eastman E2D sounds pretty good as well

Seagull s6 seems to be the best sound

Martin has a very different tone, it’s lovely nonetheless and has a lot of history behind the name as well as expertise I’m assuming

They all seem like such lovely instruments
Imma try to keep my ocd in check.

But at this point I doubt I can go wrong with any

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by davenumber2

I have two Seagulls, one pre-2006 and one post. I'm not worried about either of them. They are the two smoothest playing guitars I have and they are rock solid. Great neck angles, tall saddles and low action. They both sound great too. When you consider the price I paid (used) for each of them the value is just ridiculous. If one got destroyed or stolen they are cheap enough to just go find another one. I feel Seagulls are consistent enough that you can do that and not worry too much about getting a dud. The resistance to humidity swings is an added bonus being laminated b/s but the laminate in no way detracts from the overall tone.

“The laminate in no detracts from the overall tone”

Some will call that blasphemy but I suspect it is true
Same arguement with pianos
My kayserburg is laminate . It isn’t traditional but it sounds amazing

To my ears the seagull sounds amazing in the demos

[davenumber2]

Originally Posted by MTA88

“The laminate in no detracts from the overall tone”

Some will call that blasphemy but I suspect it is true
Same arguement with pianos
My kayserburg is laminate . It isn’t traditional but it sounds amazing

To my ears the seagull sounds amazing in the demos

That statement may not be true for other brands but I think Seagull has got it down with laminates. They use a 3 layer hardwood laminate as opposed to using filler wood or other material for the middle like some others.

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by davenumber2

That statement may not be true for other brands but I think Seagull has got it down with laminates. They use a 3 layer hardwood laminate as opposed to using filler wood or other material for the middle like some others.

Ah that explains it.

They are a bit bold in their choices maybe
Less inclined for tradition
More inclined towards innovation ?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by MTA88

Ah that explains it.

They are a bit bold in their choices maybe
Less inclined for tradition
More inclined towards innovation ?

Yes, that's about it.

The cherry plywood they make is cherry/maple/cherry for the 3 layers, with the grain of the middle layer at 90 deg to the outer layers. They make a LOT of it and supply the furniture trade and automotive industries with plywood boards. They hold licences for government forestry areas in Canada. All the cedar and spruce tops are cut from fallen rather than felled trees.

The S6 Original is a modern day classic. They have been built for about 40 years now and if any guitar deserves the term "contemporary workhorse" it is an S6. It doesn't sound like a Martin, it doesn't like a Gibson, it doesn't sound like a Taylor - it has its own big, dry, earthy sound. I was at an open mic' on Friday and the guitar folks asked to borrow, and was gladly lent, was an S6. It is not as iconic as a D18, but it is surely more iconic than a D-10e.

[MTA88]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Yes, that's about it.

The cherry plywood they make is cherry/maple/cherry for the 3 layers, with the grain of the middle layer at 90 deg to the outer layers. They make a LOT of it and supply the furniture trade and automotive industries with plywood boards. They hold licences for government forestry areas in Canada. All the cedar and spruce tops are cut from fallen rather than felled trees.

The S6 Original is a modern day classic. They have been built for about 40 years now and if any guitar deserves the term "contemporary workhorse" it is an S6. It doesn't sound like a Martin, it doesn't like a Gibson, it doesn't sound like a Taylor - it has its own big, dry, earthy sound. I was at an open mic' on Friday and the guitar folks asked to borrow, and was gladly lent, was an S6. It is not as iconic as a D18, but it is surely more iconic than a D-10e.

U sure do have a way with words

The only question is now, classic black with gosh man electronics or the original s6

As far as I can see they should sound exactly the same

Just a matter of preference lol

[MTA88]

I’ll be honest really and truly my mind was set on a seagull s6 and well I was convinced to go for the Yamaha a1r due to Yamahas rep etc.

Martin is now luring me with their name but my instincts tells me go with the s6
I mean is 500 bucks u really can’t go wrong

I can always get a Martin at a later date but I suspect I’ll be so content with the s6 I may just play the crap out of it and be in musical bliss with it .

[fartamis]

I am from Quebec and a fanatic of the brand. I have owned several acoustic guitars from the Godin family in my 37 years of playing and none have disappointed me. Their solid wood models are definitely a step above, but their laminated models are no exception and are for me among the best laminated guitars on the market. Unless you get a dud guitar (which can happen with any company) you can't really go wrong with a guitar from the Godin family.