Dead Spot / Wolf Note on a new Martin D-18

[Boozehound]

Originally Posted by Wolfi

Here's a a typical soundtrack of what I can hear when playing the wolf note compared to a "normal" note:

That's a pretty severe wolf note.. The resonant frequency must be just about right at G2. It might get a little better as time goes on, but I doubt it will go away. I hate to say this, but once you notice it you may be better off returning the guitar and finding a different one.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Boozehound

That's a pretty severe wolf note.. The resonant frequency must be just about right at G2. It might get a little better as time goes on, but I doubt it will go away. I hate to say this, but once you notice it you may be better off returning the guitar and finding a different one.

Yeah, that’s not a wolf note—that’s a direwolf note!

[GGSanders]

Had this effect on a Larrivee LSV11 fingerstyle model, only on the low E , fourth fret G sharp. It really only bothered me when I played with the capo on the first fret. Anyhow, after reading previous threads concerning this issue, I gave brass bridge pins a try. Just adding that little bit of extra mass at the bridge worked, and no, the brass bridge pins were not a tone killer, otherwise.

[SpruceTop]

I just checked for wolf notes on my Huss & Dalton TD-R and didn't hear any. A while back, I installed an LR Baggs IBeam Active in this guitar which I'm going to soon remove because it doesn't sound very good amplified. Maybe this system has loaded the guitar's top enough to eliminate any wolf notes? I'll do another wolf-note hunt after I remove the IBeam and report what I hear. My next guitar on which to continue my wolf-note hunt will be my 2016 Martin D-18 and I'll post my results tomorrow.

[agfsteve]

Could it be possible to have some kind of electronic device attached to the guitar that somehow mitigates the wolf note?

The device could work like the Hyvibe system or Yamaha's Transacoustic system, with something like an actuator that modifies the sound using the guitar's soundboard.

You would presumably set the device to kick in at a specified frequency, and the system would try to make the note sound similar in all but pitch to the other closest notes.

I would think the biggest problem to solve would be the spike in volume, as opposed to the quick decay, i.e., the system could add sustain, but would not be able to reduce acoustic volume level.

[Alan Carruth]

It would not take electronics; what you're talking about could be done with a reasonably well damped spring-and-mass system that can be tuned to the pitch of the wolf. 'Cellists have been using these for a long time. They have two sorts. One is a short length of heavy metal tubing that is slotted along one side, and lined with rubber on the inside. There's a setscrew at 90 degrees to the slot. You slip it onto one of the back strings between the bridge and tailpiece, and slide it up and down until the pitch you get when you pluck that back string is the same as the wolf, then tighten down the setscrew. As you approach the 'wolf' pitch the weight on the back string starts to vibrate out of phase with the bridge motion, reducing the movement of the top of the bridge. This prevents the player from pumping the system up to the point where it goes crazy.

The other type is a proprietary 'black box' that is probably similar in the way it works, but you stick it onto the top inside the instrument. One of the local violin shops had ordered some of these 'wolf eliminators' from Germany, and got a call from U.S Customs: did they know that wolves are an endangered species? It took a while to convince them that this was for a different sort of wolf.

All of this works with 'cellos, but may not be as useful on guitars. For one thing, the 'wolf' on the 'cello, although it's the same mechanism as the 'thuddy G' on guitars, is worse in practice because the bow just keeps on pumping energy into it until it kicks into high gear. It's partly the persistence of the input that pumps up the damper to the point of being effective. On a guitar I suspect a setup like that would simple be a different way to cut down on the sustain of the note. We don't want to eliminate that resonance, we just have to make it less problematic. The best way to do that is usually simply to shift it away from a played note by changing either the mass or the stiffness of the system.

[turtlejimmy]

If a guitar is built, and fairly new without wolf notes, can they develop them over time, as the instrument gets older?



Turtle

[SpruceTop]

I just finished checking my 2016 Martin D-18 with an installed UltraTonic 3.2 SBT Pickup System and I can report NO WOLF NOTES on the 6th-E-string from open to the 12th fret. Every note is clear and has almost the same volume. I can hear more enveloping bassy resonance on the lower notes and it gradually diminishes as I go up the fretboard toward the 12th fret. Differences in sustain as the string shortens from fretting are as expected and heard on every guitar I've owned.

>>>My testing is done at concert pitch and by fretting each note of the E-6th-string while dampening the other five strings with my fretting and picking hand and while keeping my picking hand's forearm away from the top.<<<

[B]Thus far, I hear nothing strange in the tone and volume of the E-6th string from being played open to fretting each fret up to the 12th-fret for the following guitars:

2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R with installed LR Baggs IBeam Active = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Martin D-18 with installed UltraTonic 3.2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Martin HD-28 with installed Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-05 no pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Yamaha FG5X with Atmosfeel pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES

More to come ...

And from me pub-crawling days, some Wolf-Note hunting music from 1973 for Y'all.

[SpruceTop]

>>>My acoustic-only testing is done at concert pitch and by fretting each note of the E-6th-string while dampening the other five strings with my fretting and picking hand and while keeping my picking hand's forearm away from the top<<<

[B]Thus far, I hear nothing strange in the tone and volume of the E-6th string from being played open to fretting each fret up to the 12th-fret for the following guitars:

2017 Huss & Dalton TD-R with LR Baggs IBeam Active = NO WOLF NOTES
2016 Martin D-18 with UltraTonic 3.2 = NO WOLF NOTES
2020 Martin HD-28 with Trance Amulet M-VT Phantom = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Larrivee D-05 no pickup system = NO WOLF NOTES
2022 Yamaha FG5X with Atmosfeel = NO WOLF NOTES

I don't see much more interest in this topic so I think that's enough "Wolf Note" guitar testing for me but would like other players to post their findings if they've been inclined to check their guitars.

[SpruceTop]

I hope the OP gets his Martin D-18 to sound the way he wants and that it's an easy fix! One more thing, I've heard "wolf notes" on a couple of guitars over the years but don't remember what they were. It was a while back and I know I don't have any of them now. If I should play one of my guitars that I haven't listed in my current test list, and it has a wolf note or strange tone, I'll record it for you to listen to on AGF.

[Alan Carruth]

turtlejimmy asked:
"If a guitar is built, and fairly new without wolf notes, can they develop them over time, as the instrument gets older?"

Yes.

One of my guitars developed one when it we 10-12 years old. It was a nasty 'fret buzz' sound on the B string, 3d fret and the customer uses that a lot. Interestingly enough although it was pitch linked, in the sense that it showed up at the same pitch on that string in DADGAD, it was not there on the G string at that pitch. None of the usual suspects, such as frets or nut slots panned out. Finally we did a spectrum analysis of that note, and saw that it had 'split peaks' at the 3d, 6th, and 9th partials; roughly at multiples of 880 Hz. It turned out that there was a strong multipole top resonance at about 880, with a small area of the top that moved a lot right where the B string crossed the saddle, which was why no other string would excite it. With the top moving 'vertically' at that pitch the string 'saw' a slightly different length between the horizontal and vertical polarizations, so it produced two pitches at the same time, and the 'buzz' was the beat frequency. Removing a small amount of wood from the upper end of the upper tone bar shifted the node line and pitch enough to stop the problem, without hurting the sound noticeably. In a way you could cite this as proof of tone changes over time with playing, although it was not an 'improvement'.

Top resonances in particular, but backs as well, can change pitch with changes in humidity. I took a guitar to a convention once to demo a 'wolf' note at the open G string pitch, linked to the 'main top' resonance, but the lower humidity there shifted the pitch and drove off the wolf. It returned when I got home, of course...

[Prof M]

Interesting thread and a good read. I am happy to show my ignorance here but I had not heard of Wolf tones before.

I play mostly fingerpicking and have restrung my D18 with lights and reduced the action by dropping the saddle to better suit my style. I was checking the intonation at the 12th fret (fretted v harmonic) and noticed the fretted 6th string on 12th (or 13th fretted note for that matter) did not ring out so well - still OK but a bit dead - so checking intonation on the 12th was problematic. I assumed it was due to my tinkering and as the guitar plays very well elsewhere I forgot about it and got on with playing.

Then I read this thread and I tried changing to drop D tuning and checked the 12 fret again - clear as a bell now and the 14th fretted note a bit dull. I assume this must be my wolf tone. It seems I am lucky as it certainly is not apparent on the 4th (2nd fret) or 5th (7th fret) strings.

Mike

[DBW]

Originally Posted by Hank Linderman

Wooden guitars are inconsistent, it's part of their charm. OTOH, an actual dead spot is a real problem.

A couple of things to try.

1. New strings - even a different type / gauge of string. A different "D" might be all that's needed to fix that problem.
2. Setup - it's very possible that you have some setup issues, like not enough neck relief, uneven frets, etc. - I suspect the neck is too flat. Higher action = more tone. (To a point...) Find the best guitar tech you can.
3. Alter your playing technique to suit this particular guitar

Good advice Hank Linderman. I had a Fender acoustic for a long time. After I bought my second acoustic, an entry level American made guitar, I gave the Fender away to a friend. My second acoustic (I won't name names as to not upset fans of certain woods and brands) had a dead spot on the G note of the E string (3rd fret down on the low E). I researched dead spots and read that the string frequency and the fretboard frequency in particular spots can cancel each other out. My instructor said the fretboard was dry and needed lemon oil. He also said that I might want to try a different string gauge. I did both of those things with no change in the dead spot. I also made sure that I wasn't deadening the note with my finger. I didn't try a set up with that guitar but that might have helped. I traded that guitar to a guitar shop for half of what I paid for it. I made sure to play every note on every fret before I purchased the third guitar. My additional advice would be to play each note once you receive the guitar (if you've ordered it online) and return it if you find a dead spot.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Something tells me many AGF members, including myself, will now be playing their guitars and listening for wolf notes and hoping they don't hear any!

I can't get past that the OP's screen name is WolfI and they posted about wolf notes.

There should a congressional panel investigating this!

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

turtlejimmy asked:
"If a guitar is built, and fairly new without wolf notes, can they develop them over time, as the instrument gets older?"

Yes.....In a way you could cite this as proof of tone changes over time with playing, although it was not an 'improvement'.

I took a guitar to a convention once to demo a 'wolf' note at the open G string pitch, linked to the 'main top' resonance, but the lower humidity there shifted the pitch and drove off the wolf. It returned when I got home, of course...

Alan that makes perfect sense; though now you've got me worried that a beloved guitar (or two) may change into "less beloved"!
Re the convention experience...a few months ago I disagreed with a post suggesting analogies between cars and guitars...I guess I was wrong.