How to remove the end pin on my Martin

[Sadie-f]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

I'm pretty sure that 'traditional' builders used the latest technology available at the time they worked. I see no reason to ignore technical maturity over time. We use electricity in our shops, for example to power our tools, not water wheels, and for lighting. Threaded fasteners are in common use now, too. And plywood.

Of course we use technology, the point is choosing what parts you want. I use a more tech approach probably than most for plate tuning. On the other hand I do all my mill work in a building that's a couple hundred yards from where I do most of the bench work, and assembly (which is most of the time and work that goes into building a guitar). So I'll often do cuts that are faster to do quickly by hand rather than running over to the other shop for a bandsaw, belt sander, etc.

I wouldn't want to have to build without a bandsaw, jointer, and table saw, as well as a decent quality thickness sander, and I cut fret slots in a Bridgeport mill, using a 0.023" carbide end mill. By comparison, there are builders and teachers using / advising the use of a 1/64" graduated rule to layout and hand cut the fret slots. That's building with a +/- 1/128" is starting with up to 1c pitch error at fret #12, probably below what most people can hear, however my background in precision work inclines me away from starting with any unnecessary error .. and I have ready access to milling machines.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by abn556

Martin is the only major builder who drills a tapered hole that doesn’t even fit the end pin they provide.

No they don't - the hole for the end-pin is straight-drilled, and the pin is tapered. It's a money-saving shortcut, along with improperly-fitted bridge-pins it's one of the cheap 'n' nasty let-downs of the modern Martin. So reaming the hole not only fits the end-pin, but also imparts a taper at least to the top of the hole so that the pin is less inclined to 'wobble' in the hole.

They claim that the reason for drilling smaller than the pin size is to allow for possible future wear in the hole. My counter-claim is that it's baloney.

However, I see no problem with shipping the guitar without the endpin installed. I mean, really, how much of an imposition is it to push the darn thing in when the guitar arrives? And I prefer it on the grounds of safety. And, FWIW, all three of my Lowdens arrived with their endpins uninstalled and in the accessory box in the case, so it's not just Martin who don't ship with endpins installed..

[abn556]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

No they don't - the hole for the end-pin is straight-drilled, and the pin is tapered. It's a money-saving shortcut, along with improperly-fitted bridge-pins it's one of the cheap 'n' nasty let-downs of the modern Martin. So reaming the hole not only fits the end-pin, but also imparts a taper at least to the top of the hole so that the pin is less inclined to 'wobble' in the hole.

They claim that the reason for drilling smaller than the pin size is to allow for possible future wear in the hole. My counter-claim is that it's baloney.

However, I see no problem with shipping the guitar without the endpin installed. I mean, really, how much of an imposition is it to push the darn thing in when the guitar arrives? And I prefer it on the grounds of safety. And, FWIW, all three of my Lowdens arrived with their endpins uninstalled and in the accessory box in the case, so it's not just Martin who don't ship with endpins installed..

The problem with just pushing it in is what you said first. The hole is not cut the right size. This is exactly why their whole (hole) story is BS. I had to by a reamer just for Martins. Every other brand of guitar I have ever bought came with them installed.

So if Martin wants to make up a narrative to support not installing the end pin, then could they at least cut the stupid hole correctly? Is that too much to ask?

[abn556]

Originally Posted by rllink

I didn't buy my Guild online, I bought it from a store, so it wasn't shipped. But when I bought it the end pin was in the case. I don't know if it came from the factory that way or if the dealer did that for some reason.

All the Guilds I have looked at had them installed, but I just realized those may have been the ones with USTs.

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by abn556

So if Martin wants to make up a narrative to support not installing the end pin, then could they at least cut the stupid hole correctly? Is that too much to ask?

Your question is aimed at the wrong guy. And, if you ask CFM & Co, they’ll just tell you they do it right, and for a ‘good’ reason.

I realised many years ago that getting hot under the collar on a forum will cut zero ice with them. It’s easier, and much better for one’s blood pressure, to just deal with installing pins (including bridge-pins) properly yourself - that’s what I always do!

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by abn556

I had asked if they had used the form fit end pieces of air filled plastic that secure and cushion the top and bottom of the case in the box.

Additionally, I can personally attest that all the Gibson, Taylor, Larrivee, Eastman, Yamaha, and Guild guitars that I have seen in shops all come with end pins or jacks installed. Martin is the only major builder who drills a tapered hole that doesn’t even fit the end pin they provide. You have to get an end pin reamer from Stew Mac that costs more than the **** pin is worth to install it.

Funny enough, I just bought a fairly heavily discounted (35%) J-45 with a cracked lower bout because—you guessed it—it was damaged in shipping. Of course, it has an endpin jack, so it’s not removable, but the lesson is the same. I’m not sure who ate the discount, the dealer or Gibson.

I don’t recall how the Waterloo was packed—it was several years ago.

[Sadie-f]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

No they don't - the hole for the end-pin is straight-drilled, and the pin is tapered. It's a money-saving shortcut, along with improperly-fitted bridge-pins it's one of the cheap 'n' nasty let-downs of the modern Martin. So reaming the hole not only fits the end-pin, but also imparts a taper at least to the top of the hole so that the pin is less inclined to 'wobble' in the hole.
.

I would like to hear what modern Martins you've measured this on?

It's definitely not true for my 2019 OM-28, which is 5° taper reamed and fits the original pin fine, and of course the ebony pin I decided to replace it with, same thing with the bridge pins.

I've worked with taper fits for 4 decades, and know what they feel like, so I was certain of this already, however I waited until I could get home to take the relevant measurements on the guitar before responding.

I find it remarkable seeing this kind of brand bashing misinformation posted, I suppose its not impossible Martin has changed this. However, a bridge pin that wasn't correctly reamed would wear horribly badly, and I don't believe even low wnd Martins are being shipped without correctly tapered bridge and end pin holes.

This just isn't a materially expensive manufacturing step, there's no reason to do it wrong.

[TheGITM]

I never bothered looking until now...

On both my 2012 000-28EC and 2023 0012-28 the end pin holes are tapered and the end pins 'mostly' fit the holes. Not sure if I'd want to try to press them in all the way, but the end pin holes are absolutely tapered and at least a 'close fit' on the pairing with the end pins.

So no, they are not straight-drilled. If I could not pressure fit them just using thumb pressure, it wouldn't take more than a light sanding to get them in, IMO.

0012- 28 on the left / 000-28EC on the right - note the inner diameter is clearly smaller than the outer diameter.

EDIT TO ADD: It seems I never noticed this in the Martin care guides:
"Bridge and endpins are tapered and held into place by friction. They are not glued in and are not designed to seat up to the collar. "

[rllink]

Originally Posted by TheGITM

I never bothered looking until now...

On both my 2012 000-28EC and 2023 0012-28 the end pin holes are tapered and the end pins 'mostly' fit the holes. Not sure if I'd want to try to press them in all the way, but the end pin holes are absolutely tapered and at least a 'close fit' on the pairing with the end pins.

So no, they are not straight-drilled. If I could not pressure fit them just using thumb pressure, it wouldn't take more than a light sanding to get them in, IMO.

0012- 28 on the left / 000-28EC on the right - note the inner diameter is clearly smaller than the outer diameter.

EDIT TO ADD: It seems I never noticed this in the Martin care guides:
"Bridge and endpins are tapered and held into place by friction. They are not glued in and are not designed to seat up to the collar. "

Famous quote from my 7 year old grand daughter when she asks me a question and I start the answer out with, "I think."
"Do you just think grandpa, or do you know?"

Alway nice when someone actually posts a fact.