Red Spruce: truth of fiction

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

Its interesting to look back to 10 years ago when "Adirondack magic" was in super full power bubble hype.. And how it's mostly died down now..... People see it as another good choice among good choices... Not like 10 years ago when it was "The One Spruce To Rule Them All"...

Good point. I never agreed with that set of assumptions, but after years of owning and playing both Sitka spruce and red spruce-topped instruments, I've come to the conclusion that - for my ears, anyway - the one guitar body style where red spruce tops are most noticeable and probably the most advantageous is on Martin and Martin-style 14 fret dreadnoughts. Red spruce's treble response really does seem to make for a more tonally balanced bluegrass behemoth guitar.

On just about every other guitar body style, so far as I can tell, it mainly comes down to the characteristics of the individual top itself, regardless of species.

That's been my experience, anyway. Naturally, your mileage may vary.

By the way, speaking of hype and people getting rhapsodic about one sort of top over another, an earlier episode was the sort of gushing that a lot of newsgroup and forum regulars indulged in about "bearclaw" spruce tops. I never got all excited about that, either, but lots of folks did.

Interestingly, once red "Adirondack" spruce got fashionable, much of the rhapsodizing about bearclaw simply.......went away. Bearclaw isn't nearly as common in red spruce as it is in Sitka spruce, so since in some people's minds Sitka had been demoted to a second class top wood, it simply wouldn't DO to get all excited about bearclaw anymore.

People are funny...


Wade Hampton Miller

PS: I also own one guitar each with Engelmann and Carpathian spruce tops, as well as more cedar-topped instruments than many might guess. I like them ALL!!

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by sutherland

I own guitars with Sitka, Adirondack, and Englemann spruce tops. There are two 'truths':
- I need to practice more
- I sound like me

My FAVORITE post of the day! :-) Well said. (Me too)

[varmonter]

I have a Taylor custom shop adi over Madi .
I love the sound. Seems adi doesn't get muddy
when driven hard. Where my Sitka topped martins
seem to sound ..well.. "confused" ...for a lack of a better
word when driven hard.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I have a Taylor custom shop adi over Madi .
I love the sound. Seems adi doesn't get muddy
when driven hard. Where my Sitka topped martins
seem to sound ..well.. "confused" ...for a lack of a better
word when driven hard.

What is your bridge made of?

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

The Red is midrangey with nice treble. It is a bit tight and a little unresponsive to play, you really have to strum it hard. I would say the Sitka is smooth and the Red is harsh.

Thanks. This is the way I hear it also. The reason I say thanks is because I am looking at getting a new guitar. And the style of guitar I am interested in I mostly find with adi tops. I get weak at times and I don't want to get something I don't want.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Thanks. This is the way I hear it also. The reason I say thanks is because I am looking at getting a new guitar. And the style of guitar I am interested in I mostly find with adi tops. I get week at times and I don't want to get something I don't want.

I just bought a new Advanced Jumbo with Sitka, kept seeing Red versions all over the internet. Saw 2 videos from Musician's Friend comparing them. The Sitka sounded better, more open and warm and my new guitar sounds just as sweet. Good luck with your new guitar whichever one it may be.

[s2y]

I don't think it takes golden ears to be able to tell the difference between the main 3. I admit that I need to get out and hear some Lutz spruce guitars.

In general, I find Sitka to be more versatile and more responsive than Adirondack spruce. Adirondack often makes you work harder but give you a heck of a lot more volume. I enjoy Adi most in a dreadnought type guitar. Sitka in most other stuff.

[scriv58]

To my ears a new red spruce top has a "glassy" maybe even harsh tone that warms up after some playing time, in my personal experience more than a year. I like sitka because it is warmer and looser straight outta the box.
Backs and sides seem less obvious to me, but i tend to prefer mahogany.
Ebony vs rosewood bridges? cannot discern an audible difference, but then, neither can i hear a mouse stirring under a foot of snow.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

People are funny...

PS: I also own one guitar each with Engelmann and Carpathian spruce tops, as well as more cedar-topped instruments than many might guess. I like them ALL!!

Indeed they are.

Most of this discussion of this spruce sounds like this and that spruce sounds like that are akin to stating that red cars drive like this and blue cars drive like that. Attempting to attribute cause and effect to one variable in a complex, multi-variable system without regard to the all of the other variables "under the hood".

While a car might be red in color, it isn't its red color that produces the characteristics of the finished car. Similarly, there is a whole-lot of other stuff going on "under the hood" of guitars besides which type of spruce is used - body size, body depth, scale length, bracing arrangement, bracing thickness, bracing height, size and thickness of bridge plate, thickness of top, stiffness of top material...and a thousand other variables between one instrument and the next. Two "identical" guitars made on the same bench, by the same guy, at the same time sound different. Few want to hear that.

People's obsession with spec's - rather than the quality of the finished instrument - is indeed funny.

[The Bard Rocks]

"People's obsession with spec's - rather than the quality of the finished instrument - is indeed funny.'


Maybe that is (partly) because it is one thing they can have control over. The builder controls most of the rest.

[Mr Fingers]

All other things being equal, more people prefer Adirondack to Sitka. Since some musical styles, notably bluegrass (with its narrow and specific standards for guitar tone) have a sound that was developed on Adirondack-topped guitars, it's no surprise that players in that idiom gravitate to that wood. In more general terms, while the sonic profiles of other woods can be different but equally beautiful, and of course body shape and bracing variations widen our choices even more, a general preference for Adirondack exists for a reason. More people like it. Individuals testifying that they like some other topwood better are fine and obviously true. I own Englemann, Sitka, Adirondack, and cedar-topped guitars. But when we do a general head count of what people would prefer to have, it's Adirondack, and not because they're ignorant.

[00-28]

Originally Posted by Mr Fingers

All other things being equal, more people prefer Adirondack to Sitka. Since some musical styles, notably bluegrass (with its narrow and specific standards for guitar tone) have a sound that was developed on Adirondack-topped guitars, it's no surprise that players in that idiom gravitate to that wood. In more general terms, while the sonic profiles of other woods can be different but equally beautiful, and of course body shape and bracing variations widen our choices even more, a general preference for Adirondack exists for a reason. More people like it. Individuals testifying that they like some other topwood better are fine and obviously true. I own Englemann, Sitka, Adirondack, and cedar-topped guitars. But when we do a general head count of what people would prefer to have, it's Adirondack, and not because they're ignorant.

Do you have something to back these statements up. A poll was taken here on the AGF last month where Sitka was overwhelmingly prefered over Red Spruce and when compared with several Spruce options only got about 30%.


SPRUCE--# Voters--%

Sitka----------- 70----- 42.17%
Adirondack----- 51----- 30.72%
Englemann----- 17----- 10.24%
European------- 35----- 21.08%

......................Mike

[s2y]

Originally Posted by 00-28

Do you have something to back these statements up. A poll was taken here on the AGF last month where Sitka was overwhelmingly prefered over Red Spruce and when compared with several Spruce options only got about 30%.

Sitka 70 42.17%
Adirondack 51 30.72%
Englemann 17 10.24%
European

......................Mike

I don't doubt the results. The only flaw is the desired purpose(s) and preferences. I love Adirondack for a nice flat picking dreadnought. It's not my first choice for a delicate fingerstyle guitar.

[AHill]

I'm not a luthier and I've never built a guitar, but it would seem that certain properties of spruce would aid or detract from a good sounding guitar. I've listed a few spruce species and cedar with their specific gravity, hardness, and modulus of elasticity (stiffness), which makes sense to me that those properties would affect tone. No conclusions. Just data.

Sitka Spruce
SG = 0.37
Hardness = 510 Janka
Modulus of Elasticity = 1.6M lbs/sq in

Red (Adirondack) Spruce
SG = 0.37
Hardness = 490 Janka
Modulus = 1.56M lbs/sq in

Engelmann Spruce
SG = 0.33
Hardness = 390 Janka
Modulus = 1.369M lbs/sq in

Western Red Cedar
SG = 0.31
Hardness = 350 Janka
Modulus = 1.11M lbs/sq in

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by AHill

I'm not a luthier and I've never built a guitar, but it would seem that certain properties of spruce would aid or detract from a good sounding guitar. I've listed a few spruce species and cedar with their specific gravity, hardness, and modulus of elasticity (stiffness), which makes sense to me that those properties would affect tone. No conclusions. Just data.

Sitka Spruce
SG = 0.37
Hardness = 510 Janka
Modulus of Elasticity = 1.6M lbs/sq in

Red (Adirondack) Spruce
SG = 0.37
Hardness = 490 Janka
Modulus = 1.56M lbs/sq in

Engelmann Spruce
SG = 0.33
Hardness = 390 Janka
Modulus = 1.369M lbs/sq in

Western Red Cedar
SG = 0.31
Hardness = 350 Janka
Modulus = 1.11M lbs/sq in

If this Data is accurate it shows that Sitka has the highest numbers of them all. How can that be when Red Spruce is marketed to be the hardest, densest and stiffest?