After the two shootings near El Cahon, I called Taylor to check...

[Noflatpick]

Right on for the pro-second amendment people. I own a bunch of firearms including some of the...gasp!...so-called assault weapons. I also have a concealed weapons permit and routinely carry a pistol.

It's a statistical fact that the states with concealed carry laws, and the areas of the country (western rural U.S.) where a large percentage of the population own guns, have a lower rate of crime than other areas.

Ask the local police. I don't mean the big-city police chiefs who are nothing more than politicians, but the common ordinary working cops. Ask them if private citizen ownership of firearms is a deterrent to crime. You'll get a resounding yes.

If gun control prevents crime, why do two of the cities in the US with the most restrictive gun laws, New York and Washington DC, also have some of the highest rates of gun-related crimes?

My legal concealed-carry pistol has saved my *** twice, without having to fire a shot, however, I'm very experienced in the use of firearms and I would not hesitate to shoot someone dead to protect myself, my family or any other innocent citizen being victimized by the scumbags of our society.

Guns are not the problem.

[Roger]

There are some very good comments on this subject !! I am a guitar lover and a gun lover alike, and I only buy the best, Taylor and Browning

[PF]

I went back and reread all the posts to this thread (even my own). I appreciate all the statements made by people in this thread and am glad that people's weapons (concealed or not) have offered them protection, comfort or even the feeling of empowerment.

Perhaps I AM missing something here.

I reminds me of a statement that I attribute to Frank Zappa (which may not actually be his) where it was pointed out that schools no longer teach the Bill of Rights and require students to study it in detail because it makes it all that much easier to take away rights that people didn't know they had in the first place.

I guess I need to hear more people's viewpoints who are in actual need of weapons for personal safety so that I can better appreciate other sides of the issue. I try to keep an open mind, but can also jump to unnecessarily quick conclusions.

Thanks again for the opportunity to examine a touchy subject from another angle and to appreciate another view.

[JW]

PF, In this day and time I find the need to carry my legal permited pistol. WHY? In a day of drive by shootings and a lack of respect of human life from people that would kill you over the change in your pocket or the shoes you wear I find these criminals dont care to much to be looking down the barrel of a 40 cal. Glock. I chosse to protect my family and myself from this scum.

Ive found several occasions that while on my Motorcycle that late at night people want to take you out just for the fun of seeing you go down.

My use in firearms is very extensive and I beleive in safty first. Nobody ever sees my weapon unless they become a threat. I dont want to shoot anybody but would not hesitate to do so.

Look at it this way. If you remember back some years ago one of the first times someone opened fire on a crowd was in a Mcdonalds. If one gun carrying responsible citazen had a concealed pistol it could have saved at least half of those people buy one well placed shot.

I think everything went to $&!% when the govenment took the right away from the parent to control his or her child. I think parents dont try hard enough to keep their families together when you need two parents to raise a child.

I think children are forced to learn to much to fast and it causes a malfunction. To many vidio games and not enough fresh air. What ever happened to a good bike.

You cant shove but just so much into a childs mind before somthing comes to a boil.
I will get off my soap box now before i really get carried away.JW

[PF]

JW,

As I was trying to state above, your views and others have made me realize that I must be more open to other's views on a subject as important as this one.

I ride as well and can appreciate your feelings there.

I'm glad your gun helps you and believe that you are a responsible person.

I support my family and my wife stays home to take care of our boys. We are alone among the people we know in this. I also limit and preview what my children watch and play. So I appreciate your feelings there too.

Thanks again

[Noflatpick]

Very well said JW & PF. As a brother motorcyclist (Harley Davidson) and a supporter and participant of the "right to keep and bear arms", I really enjoy reasonable debate about such topics instead of the emotional hysterics so often heard in discussions like this.

Ride safe. Keep on keepin' on.

[Erm]

My forum friends, this one may get me in trouble because I'm going to argue the other side.....No disrespect to anyone, not directed towards anyone just my opinion, that I feel very strongly over......

Guns are way to much power for a person to have. I have never owned one or even held one, it's just not for me.

I can understand why some people have them for protection. First let me say this, I believe there is a very small percentage of owners that actually do their part with owning a gun. I understand it requires a lot of care in cleaning and insuring it is operating properly. I also commend owners who actually train and become skilled with it and continue their skills by regularly shooting their weapon at ranges so in the event of using it, you limit the amount of accidents. Once again, this group is very small and I commend ever member of it, it shows your respect for the powerful machine you carry.

With that said, anyone know the guitarist from Chicago? Supposingly very well skilled with guns, loved to hunt etc..., one day shot himself by accident............That stinks, what a talent! Guess if he didn't own a gun he would still be playing.

No one can convince me that by owning a gun, you have less of a chance for accident as a person that doesn't own one......just not possible.

As for me, I can defend myself just fine. I have studied martial arts since I was very young and my studies have been called on in two occasions that I have been attacked. I explored all avenues before fighting but sometimes it's all you can do. I'm not proud of it but I was my only choice...Situations happen but if I pulled out my gun, what if he pulled out his and his was a fully automatic assault weapon or he was a better shot than I???

For all the cases you can make that a gun will protect you, you can make arguments that a gun can hurt you just as much...

For me, if you really want to be able to defend yourself, take self defense lessons, it requires commitment, perseverance and self control. and what you get is confidence, more in touch with your natural abilities and physical fitness. Martial artists walk with a confidence and an ability to detect trouble that avoids many problems before they even happen. It's a different level of self defense. Although, this is much more difficult as it takes years and years of study to reach a level of understanding, probably why most don't do it. I would bet many unskilled gun owners are itching to fire their guns, if you learn how to fight, you don't want to, that's the difference.

You can defend yourself without adding to the problem. One more gun in the world does add to the problem.

Just my two cents.....Sorry gun owners, I hate to sound harsh and I respect your opinion to own, everyone needs to do what is best for them and their family but no one will ever convince me that owning a gun is part of the solution. Guns give to much power to one person.

[Louisms]

I've never had a gun. And in my 50 years, I've never once been in a situation in which I wished I had one. The same has been true for almost all of my gunless friends. Yet virtually every gun- toter seems to have a story of how his gun saved his life at one time or another. I wonder whether there's some odd correlation between being armed and finding onesself in such a situation.
I do know that the statistics I've read suggest that possession of a handgun increases ones chances of being shot. So I guess the prudent thing for me to do is to continue to eschew the nasty things.
Still, to each his/her own. I certainly wouldn't feel right telling an 80 year old inner city resident whose house has been repeadedly broken into that she can't keep her old S+W Chief's Special. I don't support a total ban on handguns. But I have a problem with folks who see every sensible restriction on gun sales as a dangerous first step toward gun confiscation. It's like suggesting that speed limits are a precurser to the evil federal government taking our cars away. I worry about the fact that so many sub-clinically paranoid folks with delusions of persecution are the very people who most passionately desire to keep their full-auto AKs with their 40 mm grenade launchers. There ought to be some room to compromise on the issue, yet the NRA and al the gun mags insist on maintaining an inflexible hard line. This leaves those of us who believe in the right to keep and bear arms but would like, for instance, to see unregulated gun show purchases of paramilitary weapons banned, with no representation. This just doesn't seem to be an issue that generally lends itself to reason and moderation. And that's the problem.
Let me say in closing that this post is not meant to offend anyone. Some of my best friends are into guns. But I just had to add my .02 to this refreshingly well-mannered thread on a topic that gets too little reasoned, rational discussion.
Peace.
Lou

[ 03-29-2001: Message edited by: Louisms ]

[ 03-31-2001: Message edited by: Louisms ]

[Noflatpick]

Please don't buy into bogus govt. statistics like "those with guns in the house are more likely to be murdered by burglers."

Fat chance.

And if people learn to fight they'll never need a gun? Come on. I did little else but raise hell and fight from the time I was 18 until well into my forties. I've probably been in over a hundred fistfights and bar brawls and even at 52 years old I consider myself a tough SOB, but never in my life have I felt tough enough to go up against a gun with only my fists for weapons.

And please don't bad mouth the NRA until you check into what we really stand for. If the NRA members believe in nothing else we believe in law and order. Enforce the laws on the books before you start writing more.

Scumbags can murder someone and they're out of prison in less than ten years and murdering someone else. In my opinion, soft-on-crime liberal judges and lazy, let's-make-a-deal, plea-bargaining prosecuters are a bigger threat to our personal safety in this country than firearms will ever be.

[Roger]

The NRA is the only thing keeping our guns in our homes !! Im glad they are there

[JW]

ERM,
Martial Arts dont help much when your on your motorcycle.
When you travel as much as I do trouble will find you. Out of state plates make good targets.
As I get older I find im not in the physical shape I was in in my 20s. Plus even in my best day I was no match for four other people.
Most of the time when your robbed its by three or more.
Its all about responsibility with your weapon.You must know how to use it and use it well but most important when to use it.

But I live buy two simple rules. 1st, never bring a knife to a gunfight
2nd,better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6..JW

[Daniel]

Erm, I definitely respect your dissenting opinion. My dad was a combat veteran - WWII and Korea - and he taught ROTC for a few years after retirement -- took us to the rifle range at Abq. High School and taught us to shoot 22 long rifle when we could barely lift one ... I'll never foget that, or his very military, no-nonsense approach while we were on the range. No sniggering or cutting up, believe me...
When you're around stuff as a kid you don't get nearly as excited about it as under a prohibition scenario (like in Europe it's not unheard of for kids to grow up having a small glass of wine with dinner, and maybe in this way they lose the fascination with alcohol, and getting stupid drunk -- here in the USA some would call that 'disgraceful' to give wine to a young kid. So instead we have kids 'experimenting' breaking the big taboo in their teens by blackout drinking). But I digress.

You touched me when you mentioned Terry Kath, and the awful way he died (January 23, 1978).

He was my hero. I always thought his guitar ability was underrated. He played as a piece in the band, instead of going the 'walls of sound' route of the more reknowned electric guitar players of his day, like Hendrix. I found his control of the sound of his SG masterful, and the closer you listen to Chicago's recordings, the more stuff you hear Terry gettin' in... the same is true of Danny Seraphine, a truly world-class drummer no on seems to have ever heard of...

Anyway, Terry violated the very first rule taught on the very first day of firearms instruction (whether son-to-dad, or whatever), which is ALWAYS treat a gun as if it is LOADED. Terry Kath screwed around after a party and pointed his pistol at his head and said "it's not loaded" and grinned, and ... pulled the trigger. I was sick for a week when I read about it in the paper. But frankly, it was sheer stupidity. World class stupidity, for which he and all his friends and family payed the ultimate price.

<rant>
A lot of the wrong people will, and do, own firearms. A lot of the wrong people do, and will, have children, and drive cars like idiots. This town is amazing. A couple years ago I read about a woman who, while driving, noticed her kid playing with the power windows on her car, when he closed the window tightly on his neck. The child died, because, as she later stated, she waited until she got home to check if he was OK. A few months back a guy sat his one year old daughter in the middle of a busy street, to teach his girlfriend (the mother) a lesson... she refused to bring him another beer. This week a 73 year old grandmother got 5 years for selling heroin. Her second conviction. She deals through her 15 year old grandson. Another of her other sons or grandsons--I forget-- OD-ed and died a while back. Last year in northern NM, a good samaritan stopped to help a couple who's car had skidded off the road into the woods. The stranded motorist, who recently escaped from prison, stabbed him in the head multiple times, leaving the knife embedded five inches into his head, for no particular reason. Incredibly, the good samaritan lived -- in fact, only because he DROVE HIMSELF SEVERAL MILES TO TOWN FOR HELP with the knife still sticking out of his face. There are so many of these stories I'll just stop now...

Where do such people come from?? Where do they belong? Part of me says these people should be sterilized, as a Darwinian prevention of their bloodline continuing. </rant>

But another part of me has to admit that they have a right to their lives as long as they don't interfere with mine. Let them destroy themselves -- so many less people competing with me for a job or a ticket to a movie. I just hate hearing about their victims.

In a way, carrying a gun definitely invites gunplay. That's why brandishing is foolish (and illegal). Recently, federal judges and probation officers have been allowed to carry guns at their discretion. A sign of the times. I think maybe you just have one experience that forever tells you how fragile life is, and that no one is there to protect you (police? they'll tag your body and write a report two hours later...) but you.

I'll never forget one night in high school when some dolt cut right in front of us in a McDonald's parking lot. So we yelled a name at him and drove off. That was conflict resolution for 15 year olds in 1974. He floored it and drove over 2 curbs and chased us for blocks, through parking lots and traffic, and finally cornered us in a parking lot. He jumped out and stuck a big revolver in my friend (the driver)'s face. Yelled, threatened, cursed... I thought I was going to be wearing my best friend's brains. Well, he made his point (I drive how I want?) and left, and we found a cop and told him what happened, for all the good it did... So what did we call him that made him react that way? Fatso. Man, we were tough kids <g>. (BTW My point is _not_ "I wish we'd had a gun, too.")

So a lot of people who shouldn't have guns already have them. And if you could get them all back, then some of these zero-gun scenarios might work. But sometimes even the COPS are berserk, for Pete's sake. (I must apologize here to all the fine law officers in the US -- most of them -- they always have to hear the bad-cop stories and I know it must hurt them. But it is so thoroughly documented. Doctors have to hear the-doctor-killed-him stories.)

Pandora's box has been opened, and it is sad, imho, that peace-loving people have to (or choose to) acquire counterveiling force. But gun ownership can be, and definitely is, to me, a de-fensive posture. I am glad to have that choice. Too, I love decimating those paper bulls-eyes on the occasional sunny afternoon. I've met some of the nicest people at the city range...

Not sure what point I started out to make. But it is a complicated issue, and your opinion is as valid as mine. Thanks for sharing. And for reminding me of the late, great Terry Kath.

[ 03-29-2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

[ 03-29-2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

[frayne48]

I carried a gun in Nam for a year and haven't touched one since. However the problem is not with guns, it is the breakdown of the family unit due to our screwed up economic system and lack of moral values. Just my two cents.

[ 03-29-2001: Message edited by: frayne48 ]

[GRW3]

My 2¢

1) The posts stating how wonderful it is in places where guns have been outlawed are simply wrong. A simple internet survey will bring forth plenty of information on how crime has increase since the imposition of gun bans. A simpler proof is in the news, you will note that while those who oppose guns cite these places as good examples, they never detail the results. They surely would if they were what they expected.

2) People have to act responsibly. I don't have any guns at this time because I have an emotionally disturbed child who can be irrational. It is my RESPONSIBILITY to keep dangerous things away from him.

3) It is never good policy to restrict the rights of law abiding citizens in an effort to check lawbreakers.

[JayGon]

I had begun a response when this thread first started and lost my connection and never got back to it.

Bob, thanks for taking the initiative and doing what I and I'm sure others thought of doing but didn't.

I could see back then this was going to be a departure from our usual topic, but no less important. I have also ben impressed by the quality and civility of what I've read. I think it speaks volumes about the caliber (excuse the pun) of the people who participate -- and maybe buy Taylor guitars, too.

Although I do not own a weapon, largely due to the fact that my wife would object, but also because I fear the new attitude that has developed about handguns in the last several years. I have a 15 y.o. son who is a good kid, good athlete, etc. I have spent a great deal of time with him coaching his baseball teams, teaching Sunday School, etc. But I still think the violence in the rap music, TV shows, etc., has given him an unrealistic view of what guns are. I would be afraid of just that one time...

But I don't think guns are the problem by any means. They are inanimate objects, machines. It is the changing heart of the members of our society that is the real problem. Since the mid 60's, virtually every aspect of our culture's moral and spiritual fiber has been on a downward spiral. From divorce rates, length of prison incarceration, TV viewing time, abortion/out of wedlock pregnancies, drop out rates, etc. (as chronicled in William Bennett's leading cultural indicator study in the 1990's).

Our kids are taught that everything is relative. There are no moral absolutes. No real life consequences for their decisions. They are told they are products of mere chance as opposed to created by a loving God who has a plan and purpose for their lives. Life means very little, if anything, from the unborn to the infirmed. And it was my
generation (baby boomers) who taught them this garbage.

The challenge is for us to show them they are loved unconditionally, even if we don't like what they might do (those of you out there with teenagers know what I'm talking about. We must give them the greatest commodity we have: our time and attention. I know I get personally convicted when I'd rather play my Taylor than play with them, even if it is to practice my Christian music. Sometimes it's hard to put the guitar down and go see what they're up to.

We must show our spouses the love and respect they deserve, especially in front of the kids. This isn't always easy, either. God knows I don't deserve it much of the time.

As fallen and flawed creatures, we're inclined to do the wrong things so much of the time. Anger, envy, hatred, selfishness can get the better of us if we don't have a way to hold them in check. Guns and a free society were meant to exist in an environment where a higher authority was acknowledged, respected and feared. That has become less so, and we are paying the price for it with the lives of our kids.

Please forgive my rambling. I didn't realize how long I'd been up on this soapbox. Just wanted to give you guys my take on it. Thanks for listening.

Jay