Current Price of a Somogyi guitar

[nikie]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi allÂ…
My background was classical training (for nearly 20 years), interestingly only in orchestral brass instruments, vocal training, and theory.

It was afterwards I learned guitar.

In the orchestral world there are:
- Cheap knockoffs - which cost hundreds of dollars
- Serious Student instruments - from $500-2000 USD
- Serious orchestral hand-built instruments - several thousand dollars to tens of thousands of dollars
- World Class instruments (for soloists) - $100,000 and up
- Collector instruments (usually ancient, scarce, and worth more for collecting than playing)

I've always thought Somogyi, and a handful of other solo/apprentice guitar builders produce world class orchestral instruments tailored to the player's needs-and-wants which actually sound and play better than the average guitar built by custom or solo builders/shops.

I'm not going to start naming builders, but the high price of their instruments coupled with near instant sales of them speaks to their quality (tone and playing value versus monetary value to collectors because of rarity).

Most serious orchestral players do not question the value or worth of investing in world class instruments for very serious players.

But many in the guitar player world are skeptics as to the value of such instruments (or even if this quality of guitar exists).

I completly agree with your explanation and no doubt that Somogyi is one of those builders who builds one of a kind instruments for passion and tone and that can fit in most of the groups your refered (Orchestral hand build/World Class/Collector instrument). I think that he deserves all this class and more and that he has been teaching all his students (Beauregard/Matsuda/Kraut/Kostal/Buendia ...) and giving a direction but not distorting them as all have their own tone and concept as a gift for the future evolution of the guitar.

Is not an strange thing to see that his prices are so high and that is near impossible to find one of his guitars in the market. He probably has build four or five hundred guitars in all his life and no doubt that his prices will continue up or even double to the range of the best vintage historic builders becouse he is "the one" and he is still making unique reference modern luthier build instruments and history.

[Matthew Sarad]

The Somogyi I will get to babysit next week is mystery.
Built around 1986, Ervin said he doesn't even remember it.
I know it's Brazilian, but the top is a mystery.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by doodahdoug

Thanks for chiming in M19. Yes, Brian Applegate and Drew Heinonen were the two Olsen apprentices who I was thinking of in my earlier post Larry.

Hi etc-doug and M19.

I've played a lot of Applegate SJs and they are amazing. I've never played a Heinonen. I own a 30 yr old Olson Dreadnought, and have played a couple dozen Olson SJs over the years. I know the Olson sound, feel, characteristics well.

Someone pointed people to the apprentices to find a better price, which they are. I just wanted to point out 2023 price point for Applegate is $8000-9000 USD, and Heinonen base price is $10,500.

Other builders with similar characteristics (for the way I think and play) include Gerald Sheppard (retired from building), Kevin Ryan (I've played a bunch of his too). None of these have bargain prices either (Ryan base price is a hair under $10,000 in 2023)

I own/play a 30 yr old Olson Dreadnought which is my main instrument. What I heard/felt at Healdsburg 2005 festival of Brian Applegate's SJs were very Olsonesque. As the years have progressed his signature tone has not been as close to Jame's signature characteristics as they were (at least compared to the batch he brought to Healdsburg in 2005). He still builds amazing guitars.

At Healdsburg 2013 I got around to the Somogyi clone people who were displaying samples of their work and the Kostal blew my mind. Close to what I experienced when playing a Somogyi OM in 2005 (and it is still the best guitar I ever played). Wish I could afford a Kostal - but at a base price of $20,000 that's not likely to happen (I'm 74 years old).

I'm just glad a friend introduced me to James Olson in 1988, and I played a guitar which changed my entire playing career (Olson Dreadnought). In late 1991 I placed the order and mine was delivered a little over a year later.

I think in the 1990 time frame, the ability to even find (much less purchase) this quality of acoustic guitars was rare. Today, thanks to the generosity and teaching of master builders (through books, classes, apprenticing etc) we have far more possibility of purchasing world class instruments at affordable prices.

[LAPlayer]

Originally Posted by s2y

There's the old saying "if you have to ask...."
Yeah, the price tag is wild. Would love to get an Olson and a Somogyi. I'll be getting "clones"/apprentice builds.

Except, once you get your Olson, you won't need the Somogyi.........

[Br1ck]

Way back when, my cellist daughter was auditioning bows in the $2k-$3k range. We were in a room where the cellos were. My daughter looked over at a cello that caught her eye. She picked it up, played it for 15 seconds, put it right back saying any longer would ruin it for her $12,000 cello. We did ask how much. $85,000. It was two hundred years old though.

[Guitars44me]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Way back when, my cellist daughter was auditioning bows in the $2k-$3k range. We were in a room where the cellos were. My daughter looked over at a cello that caught her eye. She picked it up, played it for 15 seconds, put it right back saying any longer would ruin it for her $12,000 cello. We did ask how much. $85,000. It was two hundred years old though.

YoYoMa has a cello which I understand is insured tor three MILLION dollars. He once forgot it in a cab! Hahahaha. But of course he is a charmed individual and it was returned…. Whew

Makes half a mil for a 34 HD28 seem reasonable. Well…. Not quite!

Plenty of wonderful builders at work in the world now, including our AGF sponsors! Go check out the AGF Custom Shop and what’s going on there

Play on and tune UP often

Paul

[colins]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

Way back when, my cellist daughter was auditioning bows in the $2k-$3k range. We were in a room where the cellos were. My daughter looked over at a cello that caught her eye. She picked it up, played it for 15 seconds, put it right back saying any longer would ruin it for her $12,000 cello. We did ask how much. $85,000. It was two hundred years old though.

For many years I had a wonderful guitar built by Maine luthier Ron Pinkham, and I visited him once to say hello. He also had a business “rejuvenating” old cellos, and he talked me through the price points for cellos for students through to experienced professionals. Staggering, as you say.

And it makes me wonder whether cello forums have the same debates about price versus return that crop up here ….”that $85,000 cello would have to be seven times better than a $12,000 cello before I’d buy it!”

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by colins

For many years I had a wonderful guitar built by Maine luthier Ron Pinkham, and I visited him once to say hello. He also had a business “rejuvenating” old cellos, and he talked me through the price points for cellos for students through to experienced professionals. Staggering, as you say.

And it makes me wonder whether cello forums have the same debates about price versus return that crop up here ….”that $85,000 cello would have to be seven times better than a $12,000 cello before I’d buy it!”

More likely, “My $85,000 cello punches way above its weight—it sounds as good as cellos coming $300k and more!”

[Zissou Intern]

Originally Posted by sinistral

More likely, “My $85,000 cello punches way above its weight—it sounds as good as cellos coming $300k and more!”

My $2500 Samuel Eastman VC100 blew that $85000 cello out of the water!

[RP]

Originally Posted by Slothead56

See, this is a positive for me. I can’t buy any guitar from a a guy whose name I can’t pronounce. Win-win for Slothead!!

Too funny....

[dan!]

Threads like these are excellent!

They’re very helpful when I’m trying to convince the accounting department that I should pay $4,000 for a guitar

[RLetson]

Not at all a knock on Olson or Somogyi or a grumble about the pricing of high-end instruments, but I interviewed Jim Olson a couple of times, and his take on quality was that he didn't think he made the best guitars, just the best ones he could make. Not false humility, just a becoming modesty, and perhaps a recognition that "best" is not a single thing.

The pricing issue was interesting. The first time I interviewed Olson (1994), I recall him talking about raising his prices partly because some buyers were flipping the guitars they'd ordered (at under $3K, I think) for substantially more. My impression was that Jim was not pleased with that practice. But mainly he was hoping to reduce his backlog of orders (a year long wait in '94) and hoped that a higher price would cut some of that down. Apparently it didn't, because when I talked to him again in 1997, the backlog was up to 100 orders and a 18-24 month wait, even with another price increase (to $3595 for the basic SJ).

In any case, price is a function of demand, and demand is driven by a number of factors, not all of which necessarily reduce to a simple, linear, and measurable matter of "quality."* Sometimes price is driven by the name on the headstock--a phenomenon I observed at guitar shows years ago. Not that the desirable headstocks were attached to inferior instruments so much as that there were instruments of equal quality (to these ears, anyway) that were ignored.

* And there's also the interesting, almost asymptotic curve of price/(perceived) quality. Back when I was hanging out with audio people, it was recognized that every improvement (as reflected by, say, low-distortion or S/N or output efficiency figures) got smaller as one climbed the price/performance curve. Audiophiles would pay substantial additional amounts for increasingly small improvements. (And I confess that some of those improvements might be inaudible to ordinary, non-golden ears.) The refinements might have cost more to achieve, but that was not the only driver of price.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi dood-etc
Can you name any Olson apprentices who actually ever worked with him?

(I think there is one)

Drew Heinonen - I own one of his guitars and have talked with Drew about his time with Olson. Absolutely worked with him.

[tbeltrans]

One consideration about these ultra high end guitars is that as nice as they are, they still might not be a good match for a given player. I was fortunate enough to be around during much of the time that The Podium was in existence. I had the opportunity to play a number of guitars with the names that are being discussed here.

Many of these were simply uncomfortable for me to play for one reason or another. This is not a knock on the quality or sound of these instruments, but instead a caution that just because these are highly sought after, we still come down to the guitar being right for a given player. So spend serious time with these instruments to determine whether they are the right fit.

Tony

[LAPlayer]

You're correct, every guitar isn't for every person. Personally, I find the SJ one of, if not the most comfortable size/shape guitar to play.