Compensated Nut Creation?

[lpa53]

All of these suggestions have been a lot of help. Thanks. Some days intonation seems OK and others not. Often I think that I just don't change my strings enough.

I've thought about deepening the nut slots a bit as it is more difficult to barre the first fret than on some newer high-end guitars I've played. At the nut the height of the strings above the fretboard is about 1/16". If I go too low I suppose I risk getting some buzz and would then have to do neck adjustments.

Good to hear the non-recommendations of the BF and EV systems as I was getting leary of going that way myself.

Concerning the several mentions of nut compensation being negated when using a capo, I knew that would happen and expected it. Didn't mind it either because even using a capo at the first fret helps a ton. Luckily I love to play James Taylor songs and he uses a capo on most tunes!

[jackstrat]

I am very picky with intonation and certain strings and chord combinations drive me nuts. However, I have learned a few things (some mentioned in this thread):

1. The acoustic guitar will never be perfectly intune everywhere along the fretboard

2. String height has much to do with sounding out of tune. If the string is too high it will sound out of tune when pressed to the fret. A pro guitar tech should be able to acheive optimum string height.

3. A zero fret helps a ton. I added one to my Fender Strat and was amazed and how it seemed to fix my perceived intonation problems. I believe it has to do with #2 above.

Jack

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by jackstrat

...
3. A zero fret helps a ton. I added one to my Fender Strat and was amazed and how it seemed to fix my perceived intonation problems. I believe it has to do with #2 above.

Jack

It really shouldn't though, should it?
A zero fret positions the string heights at the the same levels as a properly set up nut.
And it isn't "intonated" in any manner.
Am I missing something?

[re17]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

I was toying around with the idea of individually compensating my nut slots (no!) as well, before I realized it doesn't make much sense for me since some of my favourite pieces are played capoed anyway

One situation where it is worth compensating at the nut is if the nut to first fret distance is actually fractionally too long, ie the neck is ever so slightly longer than it should be at that end. In such a situation, the guitar might intonate well with a capo but not when all the strings are open. And if you try to intonate with the strings open - if it's an electric guitar with individually adjustable saddles for example - then you may find it doesn't sound at all right with a capo. Compensating at the nut in this case would leave you with a better-sounding instrument both with and without a capo - as happened with one of my electrics.

I don't think this is such a far-fetched example; when we're talking tiny fractions of an inch, it's not hard to imagine a minute trimming error creeping in when the neck is made, leaving the first fret just too far from where the nut sits.

And to pick up on another point, a zeroth fret is intrinsically not to do with intonation. Some people find that strings played open on a guitar without a zeroth fret sound different to fretted strings, because the open strings have their vibrating length determined by a piece of plastic or bone - ie the nut - at one end. Employing a zeroth fret means that whatever note you play, the pitch is determined by a piece of fret wire and hence tonal variations are avoided, so the theory goes.

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by re17

One situation where it is worth compensating at the nut is if the nut to first fret distance is actually fractionally too long, ie the neck is ever so slightly longer than it should be at that end. In such a situation, the guitar might intonate well with a capo but not when all the strings are open. And if you try to intonate with the strings open - if it's an electric guitar with individually adjustable saddles for example - then you may find it doesn't sound at all right with a capo. Compensating at the nut in this case would leave you with a better-sounding instrument both with and without a capo - as happened with one of my electrics....

Good point, and no argument there. What I was specifically referring to, though, was intonation of individual nut slots. With regards to the position of the nut, I'm sure most modern builders/factories have got that right (?)

[Steev]

Surely the compensated nut will only have a bearing on the open strings? Once you fret a string the nut isn't having any effect on functioning string length.

Something I've noticed is that we all have "perfect pitch days" from time to time.
You know those days when you can just bang your guitar straight into tune with no hassles and it sounds great in any key anywhere on the fretboard?
Well that's actually not a "perfect pitch day".

Those days when you can't get it to sit anywhere in tune that is vaguely satisfying to the ear and you end up wanting to:
Buy new pegs.
Buy a new tuner.
Buy a new guitar.
Cut your hands off.
Cut your ears off.
Smash the guitar to pieces because it is obviously a piece of junk and not built properly?
That's a "perfect pitch day".

Steve

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by Steev

Surely the compensated nut will only have a bearing on the open strings? Once you fret a string the nut isn't having any effect on functioning string length.

The problem is that most people tune their guitar with open strings. On a lot of guitars the nut is too far back. You can test this by tuning your guitars open strings with a tuner perfectly. Then test the 1st fret of each note. No matter how light you press they are often sharp. So when you play any 1st position chords with open strings, there's a problem. A compensated nut makes a big difference because the tuning of your guitar is based on the nut.

[Steev]

Originally Posted by Elliott E Worby

The problem is that most people tune their guitar with open strings. On a lot of guitars the nut is too far back. You can test this by tuning your guitars open strings with a tuner perfectly. Then test the 1st fret of each note. No matter how light you press they are often sharp. So when you play any 1st position chords with open strings, there's a problem. A compensated nut makes a big difference because the tuning of your guitar is based on the nut.

Headslappingly good point! Thanks.

Steve

[Jeff M]

Tune using the American Guild of Luthiers recommended method;
http://www.stagepass.com/tuning.html

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by Elliott E Worby

The problem is that most people tune their guitar with open strings. On a lot of guitars the nut is too far back. You can test this by tuning your guitars open strings with a tuner perfectly. Then test the 1st fret of each note. No matter how light you press they are often sharp. So when you play any 1st position chords with open strings, there's a problem. A compensated nut makes a big difference because the tuning of your guitar is based on the nut.

I've taken to tuning with a capo on the 1st or 2nd fret as my Guild has much better intonation when capo'd. I've also used Mike Doolin's chord tuning idea here.

My bad tuning days are usually at night and perhaps my ears and mind are just tired. Often the bad tuning I left the night before doesn't sound so bad in the morning. Sometimes it seems that it sounds more out of tune when amplified, too - odd.

Because the intonation is better with a capo and it's the open strings that are bad in the un-capo'd first frets, I'm tending toward the idea of filing a tiny amount off the top of the fretboard just to see what it does. I've never tried anything like this but it could be a good learning experience - or then again, a bad one...

[ozrufus]

I've had great success with the eNut for guitars that needed some compensation at the nut (most noticeably on open chords, non-capoed). Cheap, non-permanent, and DIY if you get the little tools he offers.

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by ozrufus

I've had great success with the eNut for guitars that needed some compensation at the nut (most noticeably on open chords, non-capoed). Cheap, non-permanent, and DIY if you get the little tools he offers.

The eNut you mentioned is is one I hadn't seen and has the virtue of being no-invasive and, apparently, reversible if you don't like it.

Two questions, though:

1) What are the dimensions fo the supplied nut blank? It looks rather deep in the nut-to-saddle dimension, more that the 1/32 or 1 mm usually suggested.

2) Have you used their individual string offsets concept or just a single width across the fretboard?

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by lpa53

The eNut you mentioned is is one I hadn't seen and has the virtue of being no-invasive and, apparently, reversible if you don't like it.

Two questions, though:

1) What are the dimensions fo the supplied nut blank? It looks rather deep in the nut-to-saddle dimension, more that the 1/32 or 1 mm usually suggested.

2) Have you used their individual string offsets concept or just a single width across the fretboard?

I made one of these myself when my Tak was driving me nuts. I went to a luthier and asked for the tallest fret wire he had, cut the bottom T part off and filed it down. Then I just slid it in there like this guy does. I did file off the bottom of my nut though just so there was a little pressure on the fret, to keep it from shifting (this part of the process made it irreversable).

I like the bone version better as you could individually intonate each string pretty easily with that.

[ozrufus]

Originally Posted by lpa53

The eNut you mentioned is is one I hadn't seen and has the virtue of being no-invasive and, apparently, reversible if you don't like it.

Two questions, though:

1) What are the dimensions fo the supplied nut blank? It looks rather deep in the nut-to-saddle dimension, more that the 1/32 or 1 mm usually suggested.

2) Have you used their individual string offsets concept or just a single width across the fretboard?

Not sure of the dimensions, but I'm sure they could tell you if you contact them.

Yes, I used individual offsets some on one guitar that I don't have any longer (I believe it was a Breedlove). It had a better result than just the uniform eNut on that particular guitar. That said, I've used a couple others as is (still have to slot them to match your existing nut).

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by ozrufus

I've had great success with the eNut for guitars that needed some compensation at the nut (most noticeably on open chords, non-capoed). Cheap, non-permanent, and DIY if you get the little tools he offers.

Yesterday I got my eNut in the mail. I got only the nut and not the tuning offsets, whatever they are. I had small files already so didn't really need to get the kit.

All I wanted to try was the straight-across shortening of the distance from the nut to the first fret, which many articles I read suggest does the trick for most ears. eNut was the only place I could find that offered a piece of bone I could try.

What I got in the mail wasn't all that impressive - a curved piece of bone with a rectangular cross-section about 1/16"+thick. But that's all I asked for and probably couldn't have made it myself for the low price charged.

I sanded it to fit the curve of the neck and also narrowed it's width to around 1/32" as suggested in this thread. The thinkness didn't end up perfectly even but not too bad. Instead of leaving it loose as suggested on the eNut site, I superglued it in place as per Stephen Delft's recommendation. My experience in using this glue in hobby work is that you can break it if you have to so I wasn't too worried.

I clamped it and let it sit overnight, then filed down the slots to corrrespond with the original nuts grooves. Got a new set of strings and tried it out tonight. The eNut page suggests you let it settled in over a few days and the new strings need to settle but already I think I've noticed and improvement in intonation.

Of course that may all be wishful thinking due to my wanting it to work after going through the trouble. But I'll watch it over the next few days and see how things go. If I find myself still a frustrated tuner, then the improvement was all in my head. But for around $10 bucks, it's worth a try.

Here's a pic of how it looks. The contrast isn't the greatest but if you look on hte right side you can see the edge of the piece that was added over the end of the fretboard. I may want to get the slots down a little lower.