Once a certain level of fit/finish/quality is achieved, is the rest just marketing?

[Biosphere]

Recently, there has been a Chinese brand (name not to be mentioned to avoid specifying any one Chinese brand, since presumably more will pop up sooner or later) that owners claim sound almost as or just as good as the following brands:

Goodalls, Froggy Bottoms, McIlroy, Kronbauer

In other threads, I've seen them compared to Collings. It is also heavily implied that that brand competes with Martins.

Does anyone think this is actually achievable? It seems to me it should be difficult for a guitar under $2,000 to reach that level of tonal fine-ness, which would require substantial "top voicing" or what some builders refer to as secretive violin techniques or legacy recipes that are passed down over generations etc.

If the above claims really are true, then it seems that brands such as Goodall and Froggy Bottom would be reflecting marketing and their Made in USA reputation, rather than because their high mark-ups are only achievable because it allows them to spend more time on building the guitar and attention to detail that factory guitars like Taylor wouldn't otherwise allow.

Or to put it more bluntly - is it possible that China can make guitars for under $2,000 that reach the level of Goodalls and Collings as long as they figure out what the bracing is in those guitars and can do it at a much cheaper rate? Because if that is the case, I wonder if similar to Asian car brands, we are entering a new era of guitars where they are largely built overseas and for much lower prices than if manufacturing stays in the US. It would definitely be beneficial to the consumer to the extent a consumer is willing to overlook the import label. We've long since not cared that iPhones are effectively 100% made in China factories and no-one is looking for a Made in USA cell phone so why not guitars?

[Shortfinger]

Well, maybe.

But we'll never know unless players that own the 'merican-made high-end guitars buy and own those Asian-made beauties, and report to us how they play and feel and sound, in comparison.

There are currently no YouTube vids I can find where a player is doing an A-B camparo.

There is a long thread over at UMGF that would seem to touch on the matter, but most of the posts are just round-the-woodstove blather, based on what's been said by others. Zero reports from players owning well-built beauties from both hemispheres. Just a lot of spitballin'. Kinda like here.

[warfrat73]

Maybe check out this recent 15-page thread that I'M SURE isn't about the brand that you're talking about: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=680639

Short answer to your question, is: no.
After a certain point it isn't just marketing... I don't think I've ever seen an ad for most of really high-end guitar builders. Is Somogyi or Olson all marketing, no it's something very different.

Can China make guitars under $2k that consistently compete with the best of the best? Not consistently, not at the moment. On a one-off basis here and there, maybe.

[beninma]

The price to performance ratio between a boutique builder in a super expensive business unfriendly place like Vermont versus a place that might be operating like a factory in China is enormous.

But if you want a guitar from Vermont no one in China can build that.

Not hating on Vermont, I am from Vermont originally. But it is not a place to build things at a reasonable cost. Simple wooden things that are much easier to make than guitars cost many thousands of dollars when they are made in Vermont. Just like a Froggy Bottom they are worth it to those who can afford it, cause they should outlast you.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by Biosphere

Because if that is the case, I wonder if similar to Asian car brands, we are entering a new era of guitars where they are largely built overseas and for much lower prices than if manufacturing stays in the US. It would definitely be beneficial to the consumer to the extent a consumer is willing to overlook the import label.

Lot to process here. We've already been living in an era of guitars where they are largely built over seas and for much lower prices... have been since the 70s.

[J Patrick]

Of course successful marketing is important to any viable business in the long term. With superior quality, which goes beyond fit and finish, the cost of any guitar goes up. Great quality mass produced guitars are a boon to the public because they bring desirable instruments to market at prices that are affordable to the average consumer. But, I don’t think they should be confused with higher end guitars that are built by the very best makers…..you don’t have to play that many examples of each to know the difference.

In the long run, there is no substitute for the knowledge and experience that dedicated luthiers bring to guitar making. There are so many aspects to the craft that cannot be replicated in mass production facilities. Whether or not one can tell the difference or even care is irrelevant.

I once was showing a friend a nice and fairly expensive wrist watch that my wife had surprised me with for my birthday. He asked if it was really any better than a cheap watch that kept time just as well if not better. I told him that the watch knew it was better.

[koolimy]

First, a guitar doesn't care about the nationality of the person who makes it or where it is made. It just cares about the skill and knowledge of the person making it. A guitar made by an East Asian master luthier will sound every bit as good as a guitar made by a Western master luthier. See Isaac Jang as an example. His guitars go for 10s of thousands of dollars, and nobody would say they are low quality.

So yes, it is definitely possible for an East Asian guitar to sound every bit as good as a Goodall or a Collings.

The issue is that companies build guitars in East Asia to exploit the labor cost differential. They explicitly go with the intention of building to a price point. So that would ultimately mean that the guitars are built more efficiently, not better quality.

But if a company or luthier has the intention, skill, and knowledge to build a higher quality guitar in China, they can absolutely do it. Market hesitancy will be a huge problem, however. Due to the stigma associated with East Asian guitars, will someone be willing to buy a boutique Chinese guitar? Especially if the price is on par with something like a factory made US guitar like Martin or Taylor or Gibson.

Second, fit/finish/quality are IMO secondary, maybe even tertiary factors, not primary. The primary factor for an acoustic guitar, IMO, is sound quality. The secondary factor would be setup and playability. Brands like Collings, Goodall, etc., are expensive because we accept that they have knowledge on what makes an acoustic guitar sound good, and that they have the craftspeople who have the skill to manipulate the material to achieve their tonal goals. The fact that those guitars have good fit and finish IMO is a result of the craftspeople taking pride in their work, not an end goal in itself.

I think we should look at the luthier way of pricing things moreso than the factory way of pricing things. We basically reward luthiers who have proven themselves to have more knowledge and more of an ability to harness that knowledge on how to get good sound. There is an expectancy of fit and finish, although we may punish luthiers who have consistently bad fit and finish. Maybe some luthier's fit and finish goes above and beyond, into the territory of art, and we reward them for that.

Marketing of course plays a huge factor. Some luthiers make consistently amazing sounding guitars, but are not able to charge extraordinary prices because they never got enough word of the mouth. Some are able to charge mind boggling prices because a famous artist played their guitars.

But to circle back to the original question, as long as the people making the guitars have the knowledge, passion, skill, and craftsmanship to build a great sounding, playing, and looking guitar, they can make a guitar that reaches the level of Goodall or Froggy Bottom. It doesn't matter if they build it in Africa, Europe, North or South America, or Asia. It wholly depends on the person building the guitar.

[JKA]

Yes,without question. China have been making world class instruments much longer than the USA or indeed Europe has been invented.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by koolimy

But if a company or luthier has the intention, skill, and knowledge to build a higher quality guitar in China, they can absolutely do it. Market hesitancy will be a huge problem, however. Due to the stigma associated with East Asian guitars, will someone be willing to buy a boutique Chinese guitar? Especially if the price is on par with something like a factory made US guitar like Martin or Taylor or Gibson.

[...]

Second, fit/finish/quality are IMO secondary, maybe even tertiary factors, not primary. The primary factor for an acoustic guitar, IMO, is sound quality. The secondary factor would be setup and playability. Brands like Collings, Goodall, etc., are expensive because we accept that they have knowledge on what makes an acoustic guitar sound good, and that they have the craftspeople who have the skill to manipulate the material to achieve their tonal goals. The fact that those guitars have good fit and finish IMO is a result of the craftspeople taking pride in their work, not an end goal in itself.

I generally agree with everything you've said... but, two things to throw in.

First, we've seen some of the possibilities of that first scenario with Northfield mandolins. On the one hand, lots of people think that they are competing directly with pretty high-end US manufacturers and small builders... many pros using them, lots of reports of a Northfield being the best instrument on the wall at a given shop. But there is still a lot of market hesitancy and resistance. It's worth pointing out that it really is a different system/setup than most other companies building instruments in China.

To your second point... fit and finish, as I understand them, are very much associated with playability and arguably tone. That is, for example, a guitar with a poorly fit neck, or a poorly placed bridge is unlikely to play well or intonate. A guitar with poorly fit or finished (i.e. carved, hand-carved, profiled) braces is unlikely to sound good. It's not necessarily just a cosmetic issue, though it certainly can be.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by JKA

Yes,without question. China have been making world class instruments much longer than the USA or indeed Europe has been invented.

The question wasn't "can China make world class instruments." It was "can China make a guitar under $2K that competes with the very best."

[koolimy]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I generally agree with everything you've said... but, two things to throw in.

First, we've seen some of the possibilities of that first scenario with Northfield mandolins. On the one hand, lots of people think that they are competing directly with pretty high-end US manufacturers and small builders... many pros using them, lots of reports of a Northfield being the best instrument on the wall at a given shop. But there is still a lot of market hesitancy and resistance. It's worth pointing out that it really is a different system/setup than most other companies building instruments in China.

To your second point... fit and finish, as I understand them, are very much associated with playability and arguably tone. That is, for example, a guitar with a poorly fit neck, or a poorly placed bridge is unlikely to play well or intonate. A guitar with poorly fit or finished (i.e. carved, hand-carved, profiled) braces is unlikely to sound good. It's not necessarily just a cosmetic issue, though it certainly can be.

I did not know of Northfield mandolins, but that seems to be an interesting case! I'll have to look more into them.

On the second point, you are absolutely right. There are some fit and finish issues that are critically important, like the stuff you mentioned (poorly fit neck joint, poorly placed bridge, etc.). I just raised this point because as a hobby builder, I have made a guitar that has horrendous fit and finish but still sounds really good. Of course for that guitar a lot of the critical stuff like bridge placement, neck joint and angle, and guitar geometry came out good. But it had a terrible finish, glue runout everywhere, ugly gaps between the neck and body, gouges and scratches everywhere, ugly and uneven braces, a huge crack along the middle of the top, and a million holes/gaps along the binding.

So once you go away from the critical fit and finish issues that affect intonation and playability, I hesitate to put too much importance on fit and finish when it comes to the overall quality of the guitar. I have a $169 Yamaha FG800 which basically has perfect fit and finish. So I think Chinese makers have been making guitars with close to perfect fit and finish for a while, and at way lower price points than those mentioned in this thread.

[Glennwillow]

Good fit/finish/quality are just starting points for a manufacturer. In the end once this hurdle of quality is achieved, sound and playability are what matters. And no two guitar players are going to have the same preferences regarding sound and playability.

- Glenn

[Biosphere]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

But we'll never know unless players that own the 'merican-made high-end guitars buy and own those Asian-made beauties, and report to us how they play and feel and sound, in comparison.

That's what the owners of the Goodalls and Froggy Bottom are claiming, which is what caused me to post this thread, as I find such a high threshold to be intriguing if true that that Chinese brand has reached that level of tone.

Originally Posted by warfrat73

Maybe check out this recent 15-page thread that I'M SURE isn't about the brand that you're talking about: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=680639

You're right, that is not the brand that has its owners who claim to also own Goodalls and Froggy Bottoms and are claiming that the Chinese brand in question sounds almost just as good.

[Biosphere]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

There is a long thread over at UMGF that would seem to touch on the matter, but most of the posts are just round-the-woodstove blather, based on what's been said by others. Zero reports from players owning well-built beauties from both hemispheres. Just a lot of spitballin'. Kinda like here.

Thanks for the tip regarding the UMGF thread. It seems so far all we have to go on are the posts from owners who are saying they also own Goodalls and Froggy Bottoms and that a Chinese brand is able to reproduce tone to that level.

However, I am also suspicious, because if I owned a Chinese guitar that sounded almost as good as those US brands, I would not be reselling them for under $2,000, in fact, I would probably be ordering as many in as many wood combinations as possible. I would probably also want to keep it secret as when word gets out, prices start to increase (like PWG and Iris).

Then again, if the purpose of comparing them to Goodalls and Froggy Bottoms was to move the guitar quickly, it veil should also quickly fall once more people start to have experience with those guitars and that wasn't how they sounded.

[rollypolly]

Tone is subjective. I'm sure you could find some folks that think Eastmans sound better than any other guitar. But you could find just as many who think they sound just ok or no even that good.