Bolt on neck vs. dove tail or other.
 

What's the deal with the way a neck is attached to the body of a guitar? Are there significant differences in sound or playability between bolt-ons and others, or maybe more or less expensive to build?

Bolt on is significantly cheaper in terms of labor. Done properly, a bolt on neck should sound as good as a dovetail. A bolt on is also significantly cheaper to do a neck reset than a dovetail if a guitar ever needs one.

Re; affect on tone, you will see some who feel that only a dove tail neck maximizes a guitars acoustics.

Others point out that there are many world class killer guitars out there with variations of a bolt on neck.

My own take is the most important thing is the design and how well it is implemented.
There are some shi**ty dove tail guitars out there same as any other design, and many great bolt on design guitars by high end builders.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Taylor's are bolt-ons (and I've never heard anyone accuse Taylor's of being second-rate guitars!)

Yes, Taylor's are bolt on necks and they certainly are not 2nd rate guitars.

"By the way, there's an urban myth that bolt-on necks don't sound as good as dovetailed necks. If you can hear the difference, you have better ears than Ricky Skaggs. The trick is to get a good, solid neck fit, whether the neck is fastened with glue or with bolts. You'd be surprised how many makers use the bolt-on neck design." Dana Bourgeois as per Pantheon/Bourgeois Website

Yes they are.
But if you hang around the forums a few years you will find die hards who are not thrilled with Taylor guitars and bring up the bolt on design as one of their issues.

Definitely.
And you can add Bill Collings to the list of world class builders who uses a bolt on design.

I personally believe it extends beyond the tonal characteristics of the guitar and incorporates a more broad, distinct identity of an instrument. I mean, when I think of neck joints (or design in general for the matter),I associate Martin with dovetail and Taylor with bolt-on. Of course that's an extremely limited focus of thinking, but I suppose my point is that I identify more than just the tone with the neck joint for an instrument.

I'd feel pretty weird playing a dovetail Taylor because they're known for their innovation with the neck joint being one of those things. If I played a bolt-on Martin, that would be weird too even if it sounded the same because part of what I associate with a Martin is that building characteristic.

As far as tone goes though I don't necessarily believe there is a fundamental "better" sound with either one. It just contributes to a different voice, not a better or worse voice.

I am firmly in the bolt on neck camp.

There are simply too many advantages using bolt on necks and I must confess that my hearing is not that good to hear that special tone in a dovetailed neck!!

Keyshore

There is something about knowing my Larrivees have hand-fitted dovetail joints that makes me think the detail that goes into making them is 2nd to none.

I don't know if there is a difference in tone between bolt on or dovetail, but they sure do sound great!

I don't think either one is better. Richard Hoover and Chris Martin will give you a variety of reasons why a neck should be dove-tailed, and they have the amazing guitars to support their claims. Dana Bourgeois and Bob Taylor will give you excellent guitars with bolt-on necks. I would neither buy nor not buy a guitar because of the way the neck is attached.

if the guitars or of middle to low quality then it really wont make a difference but when you get into the best of the best then i personally dovetail comes out on top for sound

At this point the majority of Martins (in terms of pure number built) use a mortise and Tenon joint that is glued and bolted, not a dovetail. You have to get to the 18 series and higher to get a dovetail on a Martin these days.

I like to think of myself as somewhat of an expert on neck joints....in fact my reputation hinges on them...(pun intended)

In 1972 I started with dovetails and then moved to a doweled mortise and tenon in 1980, then to bolt-on. In my experience any one of them properly executed will allow for no tonal loss, which is really the issue right? I built my first bolt-on neck in 1988 and I have never looked back. The only difference I have ever seen from one to another is that the side benefits of the bolt-on far outweigh those of any of the others: ease of construction, ease of alteration and being able to finish necks and bodies separately.

Then there's Voyage Air....

The joint on Voyage Air is essentially a bolt-on, the hinge really doesn't do anything once the neck is in the playing position, in fact string tension is necessary to fully mate the 2 halves of the fretboard. You would think that this would cause some loss of signal but if anything the Voyage Air neck seems to apply more energy to the top than my standard bolt-on guitars. I think it has something to do with the fact that, by design, the tension of the strings is directly applied to the fretboard and not spread out over the entire heel. Thom Bresh has his Voyage Air set up so that the bolt is about 2 turns loose for his preferred string height (a ridiculous .050 under the bass strings...) as he travels he can adjust the the string height if he's somewhere that the climate raises his action. Even with essentially no heel contact until the fretboard there is no loss.

I'm not advocating one over the other though. Despite the benefits to the bolt-on there is something very cool about a well executed dovetail. Keeping a tie with the original craft of guitars is a worthy endeavor and let's face it, there are instruments made with dovetails that have been around a long time.

Of course... a folding dovetail would not be a good thing.....

I have both.
I love both.
A good guitar is a good guitar, regardless of the details.
Harv speaks truth :-)

I am a traditionalist so the concept of a bolt on/mortise & tenon neck bothers me a little bit. That said, Ryan doesn't use dovetail and his guitar are great.

I think most serious Martin players play an 18 or up so at least we think of the majority of Martins are dovetail. An odd exception....Martin DM3MD Dave Matthews Signature/Artist series...the only Signature/Artist series that had a mortise & tenon. Not really sure why. I think someone bumped their head the day that decision was made. I think it sounds a little thinner than all the other Signature/Artist Martins...though it is one of the most wanted Martins.

I build both and I don't hear a difference. I reset both and there is a big difference in cost to the owner.

Fitting a single tail in a single socket is a piece of cake compared to the everyday cabinetmaking task of getting ALL the dovetails on a piece of casework to fit WITHOUT shims, filler, excess glue, etc. As far as dovetails requiring more skill than M&T to make and fit...sure, if you cut the joint by hand and never studied geometry; otherwise, either joint can be quickly cut with a router or CNC and fitting is no big deal for either.

I think this is very true but also, I think a wood on wood connection is very important. The better bolt on necks don't just sit on top of the neck block but fit into it somehow. If you look at Taylor's NT joint, it's cupped at the top and back so the joint fits together like a puzzle piece. It's that wood-to-wood joint that transfers the vibration from the neck to the body evenly and vice versa.

I think many folks like the dovetails because by their nature they are a wood on wood connection and even if the glue joint gives, a properly fitted dovetail will stay seated. Most true bolt-ons will get wobbly if the bolts loosen. Martin uses a bolted Mortise and tenon joint that is glued for the 1, 15, 16 and X series guitars. I've been told that the bolt can be removed after the glue cures but it's not recommended because if the glue joint gives, there's nothing to hold the neck.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone make a guitar with the same specs using both types of joints so I have no idea if there is any sort of tone difference between them. The theory I've heard is that the material and weight of the bolts alters the vibrations coming to the neck so the sound is different then a direct wood-to-wood connection of a dovetail. Lots of players even say the material of the neck alters the tone.

I can't say if that is true or not but it's a theory I've heard...

-Jim

Martin uses mortise and tenon on their lower end guitars and dovetail 18 series and higher, it may well be more about cost than anything.

I don't care what neck joint they use, a guitar has to have the sound I'm looking for, if it sound good it sounds good. My OMC-Aura is mortise and tenon, I can't tell any sonic difference, but it's also my least expensive Martin and doesn't have quite the sound of the high enders. Whether that's a function of the neck joint or a 16 series based guitar against 42/45's I don't know.

Bourgeois and Collings make great guitars, so I am neck joint indifferent, give me tone and I could care less about ther neck joint.

I'm no expert, but I do think it's a question of tradition and, for some folks, part of the definition of the instrument. The same thing can be said about the materials used in the instrument.

In terms of quality, someone said it earlier that there are plenty of examples of poorly-executed dove tails and plenty of examples of exceptional bolt-ons.

I have both bolt-ons and dovetails. I love both. IMO, strings, body style, saddle, bracing, even finishing... all have far more impact on tone of the instrument than the neck and it's joinery.

I do nod my head though that when it comes to buying traditional instruments there are some expectations here that are important to people. I do not claim those are always rational or even common across different people.