Nut width: 1-11/16" vs 1-3/4"
 

I know this has been discussed to the nth detail, but my local Martin and Taylor dealer brought up a good point when I complained that Martin Dreads are produced with a 1-11/16" nut width, preferring 1-3/4". (Thanks to cutting 5/8" off of my second finger, my fretting hand is kinda messed up.)

They asked, can .063" really make a difference across the fret board, given that the difference in space between strings (if divided equally) is less than .013" of an inch. That translates to the thickness of four sheets of lined notebook paper.

For grins, I used CorelDraw to print out the two neck sizes with strings and overlayed them. Can barely tell a difference by eye, and given the imprecision of fretting fingers, why does .013" of an inch make a difference?

Is it mental?

I realize that the shape of the back of the neck makes a difference as it alters the fretting hand angle, etc., but again, why the big deal?

JackL

At what point in his life does a boy become a man? :)

All these differences exist in a continuum. For some players (myself included), 1 11/16" is *just* too small, while 1 3/4" is *just* enough. Of course, I am generalizing as well, since many other factors come into play: the spacing at the saddle (which also affects spacing across the fingerboard), neck profile, how far the outer strings are from the edges, etc.

I have to agree with mmmaak. For some reason most Martins I play with that neck width just seem too small and I find myself fat fingering chords occaisionally. 1 3/4 no problem. I actually had a Goodall Parlor with 1 7/8 that I really became accustomed to especialy for fingerstyle playing.

I have always been amazed at the huge difference it makes. And forum members seem to concure, it makes a big difference. I would be highly suspicious of your local Martin dealer if she/he doesn't know this.

This is not to say that one is better than the other. Martin dread players are frequently bluegrass pickers who prefer the narrower nut to facilitate their quick pick runs. Fingerstyle players seem to prefer wider nuts to facilitate their intricate fingering. One is not better than the other, but, they are definitly different.
LC

Now ya wouldn't think that .013 would make a hoot of difference would ya? But of course it does. I struggled with the larger 1 3/4" nut over the years with several guitars until I finally decided that my hands simply are not big enough nor my fingers long enough to comfortably accommodate the larger nut. As with many things in life, it's personal preference along with whatever works best for you. One is only "better" or my "desirable" than the other if it meets your particular needs. In my case, cleanly chording a 1 3/4" just wasn't going to happen for me.

They're small differences, but you can feel them. My three guitars are all different (1 11/16, 1 3/4 and 1 25/32). I enjoy them all, and play at least two of them in a session so am used to swapping between them. If I had to be drawn on a preference it would probably be the wider 1 25/32" as I find it very comfortable for the fingerstyle stuff I play.

I don't have particularly large hands but am used to stretching, having been a classical pianist for 25 years or so.

I think it depends on the shape and thickness of the neck if neck if it makes a difference as well as the style of playing. If it is a V-shaped martin neck then you either like it or you don't in 1 3/4.

-Tom

I had a Martin dread special with a slim profile 1 11/16" neck that seemed to play better than any of my others (8 at the time). I found out later that the string spacing was a hair wider - 2 3/16" vs 2 1/4". Something they did just to differentiate that special edition, along with a bunch of fancy cosmetics, fwd X scalloped bracing and the like. Though I was unaware to begin with, it did make a difference.

Now my guitars all have 1 3/4" nuts and 2 1/4" spacing, which seems to work best for me.

When I worked as a bank teller just after college, I could grab a roll of dimes and tell if it had too many, too few, or the tight number of dimes in it. A dime isn't very thick, relative to the overall length of a full roll, but anyone who's handled those rolls for a while can feel the difference instantly, without thinking about it. If you've got a good sized dictionary in your house, open it in the middle and run your finger over the location of the page numbers. On many dictionaries, you'll feel a distinct bump, caused by the microscopic layers of ink occurring in the same location on page after page. The thickness of the ink layer, relative to the thickness of a page, is pretty small but its cumulative presence on every page is clearly discernible. Our hands are extremely sensitive thickness detectors.

I have a really nice 1979 Taylor that's in phenomenal shape. It's sounds and plays really well but rarely gets played. Why? Well, probably primarily because I find the dreadnought shape a bit off-putting. But also because of its 1 11/16" neck. I can play it, and can move from it to a larger neck or vice versa without too much re adjusting. But I just prefer the feel of a wider fingerboard. Even 1 23/32" feels better (although how much of that is nut width per se versus neck profile and other factors is hard to say).

If I had to, I could adapt to 1 11/16" but I just prefer a somewhat more generous fingerboard. When you're fretting a string, the proximity of your finger to the adjacent string can be pretty darn close. Even a whisper of extra room can make a difference in how cleanly the notes sound. Guitars and guitar playing involve fairly narrow tolerances in general. A little bit can mean a lot.

I play several different guitars ranging from 1 11/16" to 1 13/16. I have to say that each neck width feels different than the other, but I am able to jump back and forth between them without much problem. Despite having large hands, I prefer the 1 11/16" the most.

It is truly a preference thing, but to answer your questions, there is definitely a difference.

I can't speak from experience, as every one of my guitars, acoustic & electric, is 1 11/16". HOWEVER...

I find the "playing difficulty" (when fingerpicking) VARIES WIDELY between them. All the nuts are the same. Hmmm...interesting...

All the string spacing at the saddles are NOT. Mine vary from 2" to 2 1/4". Which begs the question, "is string spacing AT THE SADDLE more important that nut width?"

I'm guessing wider nut width + strings going out at a slight angle = wider spacing at bridge, so this would be exaggerated even more with a 1 3/4" or 1 5/8" nut.

FURTHERMORE... the neck profiles also vary somewhat, which I can say from experience, is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than nut width or saddle spacing.

And we won't even go into neck radius...


I guess what I'm saying is, I'll bet of all the above factors, nut width is one of the LEAST important... neck profile being the MOST important.

All IMTO... that's In My THEORETICAL Opinion... :D

I prefer 1.75" nut width because I know I play cleaner fingerstyle notes with that width. I love my Seagull S6 Original (1.8" nut width) for the same reason. Less dampening and finger buzzing between strings...more forgiving.

jackstrat, it sounds to me like that dealer was downplaying your intelligence. You should go back to them and ask them why they omitted the rest of the story. 1/16" at the nut can equate to 1/8" at the bridge and sometimes more. As has been mentioned here, nut width is important when it relates to how spacing is considered at the 12th fret and at the bridge/saddle area. A 1 3/4" nut [on a Martin anyway] equates (generally) to 2 1/4" or 2 5/16" or in my case, 2 3/8" string spacing at the bridge. On the other hand, 1 11/16" at the nut generally equates to 2 1/8" at the bridge. In my case, the difference is 1/4" string spacing at the bridge.

I had this discussion with a shop owner once and was told I was splitting hairs. Too bad, he lost a sale for blowing off my concern and not trying to understand where the [string spacing] line was drawn for me.

+1

I don't know of anyone who can't tell the difference between 1 sheet of newspaper and two when held between the fingers. The dealer doesn't sound like he's ever actually played a guitar.

geokie8

I will second your opinion. I have a skinny necked 1 11/16" and a modified "V" profiled neck 1 11/16" And without a doubt there ia a world of difference in the feel. Much, much more than the difference between my 1 11/16" and 1 3/4" guitars.

The neck profile makes the spacing feel much more open and uncramped because your hand is more comfortable and makes fretting much easier. I was surprised at the difference myself.

This is interesting. While we have gone back and forth on 1 11/16" vs 1 3/4" nut width many times, I don't remember over the last 18 months that we have discussed this exact subject -- CAN WE REALLY TELL THE DIFFERENCE?

Obviously from the posts listed above, plenty of people can tell the difference. Bob Devellis' comments are particularly interesting to me.

For me, sometimes I can tell the difference and sometimes I can't. When I started posting here, I was sure that I preferred 1 11/16" nut width, but I would have also agreed that the easiest guitar to play that I owned at that time was my Taylor 514CE, which unknown to me at the time, has a 1 3/4" nut width.

I have guitars varying from 1 5/8" to 1 7/8" nut width. Once I get used to a guitar, I don't notice the difference in nut width one way or the other -- except for the 1 5/8"! The one I have the most trouble with is my Martin 000-28VS with a big fat "V" neck and a 1 13/16" nut width. But even that is not a big deal after about 5 minutes of playing.

My fingers are of medium length but slender width, so my fingers fit on a 1 11/16" nut width just fine. But I've found that I can live with all kinds of nut widths. On a guitar I've never played before, I can play a 1 11/16" nut width very accurately, but I'll mess up on a 1 3/4" for a few minutes, probably because I've spent a lot of years playing electric guitars and the most natural feel for me is 1 11/16".

Regards, Glenn

I have to say this : you are a very smart man .

I feel to some its not a big deal and to some a card stock in thickness makes a difference . I believe that a good guitarist can adapt to what ever fingerboard width, radius or scale length that is put before them.
I bought an OM because i was told I needed the wider fingerboard width for fingerstyle - but threw time i figured out i like the narrower Dread boards for fingerstyle -my philosophy is that the closer the strings are to one another the faster i can get to them - One idea is to have diferent fingerboard widths on your guitars -im betting it will make you a better guitarist and let you adapt quicker .

That 1/16" is actually a large enough difference to be a deal breaker for many guitarists. I prefer to think in terms of 1/64 increments, so the choices are really 1 11/16 - 1 45/64 - 1 23/32 - 1 47/64 - 1 3/4, and best for me and many of those I know well; 1 49/64, which I usually refer to as 1 3/4+. These smaller steps do not usually turn out to be deal breakers, and if you imagine I am being silly or obsessive, don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Schoenberg used to habitually order his guitars from me with 1 13/16, but is slowly seeing the light and currently favors 1 27/32!

Yes, yes, yes, Eric Clapton can play anything with strings and a neck. I read the poster's thread question as what is more comfortable. For me for three reasons I prefer the 1 11/16 nut width and narrower fret boards. First, I thumb over the top on some patterns with a smaller left hand and want to stay clean on the high E string at the bottom as I do so. Second, I cover multiple strings on some chord patterns with one finger..easier when strings are closer.
Third, I feel that I can flat pick faster with shorter distances between strings. Physics.

If you don't know any different and can't tell the difference yourself NOW, no, it won't make a bit of difference. You'll catch on and learn to prefer it I'm pretty sure. If you've played a 1.75 and move to a narrower width, you will always wish you had waited for another 1.75.

If you are a strummer and not a finger picker, it's all up to you. I don't see where that would matter as much.

i was surprised - nay, shocked! - to discover last june that yes, that little bit of difference makes a huge difference to me. funny thing, but when i was first planning to buy a yamaha fg730s, people on this board warned me about the neck, and i thought "how much could such a little difference matter?" and went ahead with the yamaha. i ended up trading it for a seagull original s6 with great relief.

and me too...
 

I went through something quite similiar. I had a guitar that I was comfortable with for strumming and single string runs but...when I started learning to fingerpick I just could not get my fingers to chord properly and ended up consistently dampening the strings (I don't know what other term to use - thud?). The nut was 1 11/16th. I decided to get another guitar to focus on fingerstyle and went into a local dealer who had a nice sunburst acoustic that I "just had to have," but...1 11/16th. Got it home and had the same problems. Hard way to learn.

After some dedicated playing time at several other dealers in my area, I finally found that 1 3/4 works just right (or right now) for me. 1 7/8 was too much and I could not move my thumb over the top and consistently make some of the chords that go with country blues and the old nut width wasn't working. So a process of elimination.

I have so much more to learn, but as with Patty, I have made some mistakes along the way to find what works. And that is what matters to me...that it works and I can play with some comfort. That perception of comfort makes practice seem easier...and more attractive.

It seems that most of us prefer 1-3/4", yet many of the most popular guitars in the history of the craft (Martin D-18 and D-28, etc) have 1-11/16" nuts, and this is my quandry. I want one or the other (or both), but am concerned about the 1-11/16 nut. I have very large hands, and in the store, they seem to play fine, but...

I have paws for hands,as some of you describe,too! And really do feel that 1/16 and so prefer the 1 3/4 nut measurement. I would like to add that at one time I had a 1968 Hummingbird which was supposedly ordered by John Sebastion...it had a 1 9/16 nut with what I would call a low profile shaped neck.When I picked it up to play,the feel was "giddy-up",but I can't and I smashed some chords.

The difference is like night and day to me. Having just gotten a 1 3/4" nut OM recently (inexpensive Silver Creek), it's about all I play right now, but the 1 11/16" size is still a joy to play as well. However there's no mistaking which is which. Far more finger-picking room (or flat-picking room) and room to form chords on the 1 3/4". Also bending room. I really enjoy playing blues on the wider nut. Strumming the large nut size is still fine, though for stumming-only the smaller nut size is easier (of course). But when I try to finger pick on it now, it's feels more like I have to "pick at" and on top of the strings on the 1 11/16", rather than the sensation of "picking in" the strings, that the 1 3/4" nut feels like. The SC also has 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle btw.

It's all good though.

Actually, someone on this forum did a survey a while ago -- http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...ight=nut+width

52.5% preferred 1 3/4", 30% preferred 1 11/16".

Again, people... NECK PROFILE (and radius for that matter.)

You can't really talk about so-called "direct" comparisons of 1 11/16" vs 1 3/4" nuts without including the neck profiles. It's a HUGE (probably the biggest) part of the equation.

So "guitar A had a 1 11/16" and guitar B had a 1 3/4" and I preferred guitar B"... doesn't really mean anything.

I have an old 1970s Korean Martin D-copy with a V neck and 1 11/16" neck, which is a pretty close neck profile comparison to my Silver Creek T-170 Martin OOO28-EC copy (and very similar, if not the same radius), and I can assure you there's a HUGE difference just from the nut width. It's amazing to me how much 1/16" at the nut, with an extra 1/8" string spacing at the saddle can make.

Maybe not everyone can feel the difference, of course, but I sure do.

Which begs the question, why doesn't Martin offer a 1-3/4" nut option (without paying custom made prices) on their flagship models, the -18 and -28?

jack